Podcast #172: Scottish Highland Games & Training for Performance

Brett McKay: Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of The Art of Manliness Podcast. You’ve probably seen on TV or on the Internet, the Highland Games. You probably didn’t know they were called the Highland Games but you’ve seen the events in the Highland Games. It’s the guys who are wearing the kilts, they’re throwing the giant telephone pole looking thing, they’re throwing hammers over their head, they’re throwing big, burlap sacks over their head with a pitchfork. It’s a really interesting strength sport out there. It’s one of those fringe strength sports along the lines of Strong Men or power lifting. It’s really fascinating. I’ve always wanted to get involved with it somehow, get in touch with my Scottish ancestry.

Anyways, today on the podcast, I have a world champion Highland Games competitor. His name is Matt Vincent. Today on the podcast, we discuss the Highland Games, what’s involved with it, how you can get started if you want to try throwing a caber while wearing a kilt, the type of training you need to do, strength training to get ready and prepared for Highland Games competition. We also talk about his programming that he’s created called “The Hate.” We’ll talk about why he calls it The Hate as well, in a bit. A really fascinating podcast, so, without further adieu, Matt Vincent and Highland games.

All right, Matt Vincent, welcome to the show.

Matt Vincent: Yeah, man, stoked to be here. Really been looking forward to this one.

Brett McKay: Right. I’ve been following you on Instagram. You have an entertaining Instagram feed, but also some of your work in other places online. You are a Highland Games competitor, so not a champion. Before we get into talking about what Highland Games are, because I think very few people are … they’ve probably seen it, they don’t know it’s called Highland Games.

Matt Vincent: Yeah, that’s kind of pretty standard.

Brett McKay: Let’s talk about your athletic background, first. How did you get to be a guy who throws around cabers around the world.

Matt Vincent: Like anybody, through high school, and growing up, I basically played everything I could; and, to some, I guess the extent of being decent at a lot of things, but not very good at any of them. Through high school, I ended up playing football and doing track, and having more success, actually, as a shot putter. That’s what brought me to college on a track and field scholarship to LSU down here in Louisiana. Post-college, I gave It a run at owning a bicycle shop, and that didn’t work so well.

After doing that, I got into a normal job in the oil and gas industry and started getting back in the gym and it seemed like the thing I wanted to do was strength training, still. I did a couple years of Strong Man and a couple of years of power lifting, and got a chance to go compete in a Highland Games. As a thrower, like, in college, you kind of always know about the Highland Games. You know it exists and it’s ones of those things, like how do you ever do that. Kind of the same as Strong Man is, but now with YouTube and the Internet, it’s a hell of a lot more accessible.

So, I went to a game and had a great time and the got a hold of some people and located some more games and traveled and did that for about a year and a half as an amateur, and then got invited because I won an amateur world championship to the professional world championship in 2011, and I took second place at that, and I’ve been doing it ever since.

Brett McKay: Fantastic. How did that first invite happen? Was it just like, “Hey, you want to go do this?” It’s such a weird thing to get into, I think. How did it come up? Was someone like, “you should do this”?

Matt Vincent: Any of the fringe strength sports, you know, Strong Man, power lifting. There’s competitions all over. There’s a Highland Game usually every weekend. They have an amateur class and they have a novice class. A novice class is basically just like anything else, you just sign up and go. Somebody who I was strength training with at the time said, “you know they have a Highland Game coming up about an hour from here.” I was like, “Oh, no kidding, we should look into going to do that. We ordered kilts and went and had a good time.

Brett McKay: Let’s talk about the Highland Games, because I think people are familiar with caber tossing. Can you give us a brief background of what the Highland Games are and the specific events of them.

Matt Vincent: Sure. There’s eight traditional events and in the States, we do nine. You have two stones that you throw exactly like the shot put. One of them is a heavy stone, and one of them is a light stone. The heavy stone is anywhere from about 22 to 28 pounds and you throw it just standing like a shot put throw, but you don’t get an approach. It’s just measured for distance. We also throw the lighter stone, which is 16 pounds and it can go up to 18. I mean, they’re stones, they’re not perfect and you get a full approach like that. It’s exactly the same rules as throwing the Olympic shot put. We throw two weights for distance. These are a little different and don’t look like anything else, so they’re basically a steel block on the end of a chain with a ring. You throw it with one arm and they weight 28 pounds for the light one, and 56 pounds for the heavy. You spin twice and throw it as far as you can.

Then, we have another distance event where we throw the hammer, which is a steel or a lead ball on the end of a stick. Usually like a rattan handle, or something like that and it’s 22 and 16 pounds again, and you kind of anchor yourself into the ground with boots that have a blade on the front of it, so one end of this thing is spinning around your head. It doesn’t pick you up and throw you on the ground.

We do the caber, of course, is the on everyone knows. It looks like the telephone pole. We also throw a 56 pound weight up over a bar, for height, with one hand. The one that kind of rotates in and out is called the sheaf. It is a 20 pound bag we throw with a pitchfork for height.

Brett McKay: You talk about you wear kilts when you do this. These came from Scotland.

Matt Vincent: Correct.

Brett McKay: Do you have any idea how the Scots invented this stuff? Like, why did they come up with “I’m going to throw a giant pole. Or, I’m going to take a big, giant burlap bag and hoist it over with a pitchfork,” what’s going on there? Do you have any idea about the history of the Highland Games?

Matt Vincent: Yeah, so the history of the Highland Games, the way it really started was it was a test between the clans, I’m sure which developed just from farmers, basically, coming up with being bored, and not having nearly the distractions that we do no, you know, “I bet I can throw this rock further than you.” This continued to grow as men tend to find challenges and things like that to do against each other. They’re similar type of battle things, like throwing rocks to defend yourself or the weights, actually were … The old 56 and old 28, these are all part stone weights, right. A stone is 14 pounds, a two stone is a 28 and four stones is 56. These were used as counter balances at the feed market. As things moved on, I’m sure someone took one and said, “I think I can throw it further than you or higher.” That’s what the original ones actually looked like, and they were counterbalances for the other side of the scale.

Then, the caber … The caber has a lot of I think it was used for this, but it was crossing a stream, you would you know, flip it, so it would lay at one end and fall on the other side, directly across the stream, and you could get across. I still don’t see how that would be the most efficient way to do it.

Brett McKay: That’s one way to do it.

Matt Vincent: It’s definitely one way to do it. That’s the gist of it. You know, the hammer was, actually, like a sledgehammer and then I’m sure it developed into “I think I can do this better than you.”

Brett McKay: Boredom probably was the impetus.

Matt Vincent: Boredom, and you know, drunk guys, I’m sure were talking a lot of noise to each other, decided to put it to the test.

Brett McKay: Is there an event that you specialize in, particularly? I’m guessing the throwing ones.

Matt Vincent: Yeah, for me, I really like, throwing the stones. That’s probably been the event that I’ve been the best at over the last couple of years, as well as the weights for distance. Those have been my most consistently top-ranking events.

Brett McKay: Is there one in particular that’s really hard to do, you’re just like “man, that sucks.”

Matt Vincent: I’m really bad at the hammers. Look, it’s relatively bad, right. I’ve been chasing the same guy in the number one and number two spot in the world, for the last couple of years.

Brett McKay: Is that McDaniel.

Matt Vincent: Yeah, McKim, Daniel McKim. He’s very good with the hammers, and he’s got world records in both of them. I’ll throw well, and throw a PR and then lose by 15 feet. I’ve really spent a lot of time over the last couple of years trying to improve that event and it’s been a relatively futile attempt. I haven’t got much better at it.

Brett McKay: You’ve got to keep striving.

Matt Vincent: You’ve got to. What are you going to do, just quit? That doesn’t make any sense.

Brett McKay: No, that doesn’t make any sense. I think the mountain from Game of Thrones does this sort of stuff as well, you’ve competed against him.

Matt Vincent: Yeah, he’s done a little bit of stuff, right. He’s done the weight over bar, which is of all the ones with any like, I guess, if you’re just going to be a brute and give it a go, that one is your best bet of being able to figure out. Not to mention, that guy throws kegs for height. He’s of the move, plus, people in Iceland seem to know how to move heavy stuff. He’s done a couple of those with us, and I think, actually has the world record for standing weight over bar, not technically as a Highland Game weight over bar, but he has thrown it higher than anyone else in history.

Brett McKay: I’ve got you. I’m curious … This is something I want to do. Like, I want to try that out. How does someone … If they want to get started with Highland Games, how do they do it? What’s your advice for someone who wants to start throwing cabers and hammers around?

Matt Vincent: My actual advice is to find a local game next to you and o in and compete as a novice. The people there are going to be super friendly even if you’ve never touched any of it.

Brett McKay: OK.

Matt Vincent: That’s what novice is for, right, you’re brand new to this. I always recommend that to people. If you’re moderately fit and you’re working out and you’re athletic, yeah, just go give it a shot and see if it’s any fun before you start investing a bunch of time and energy. You know, accumulating some implements, and starting to think about training for it. Go see if you actually like it first or if you like the environment. From there, you’ll actually meet some people, and perhaps find a training group. It’s really the easiest way to about it. There are some training groups and heavy events people or groups on Facebook that are pretty easy to find just with the group search. That gives a lot of direction, too.

Brett McKay: Got you. You’ve written a lot of books. You’ve written some books on strength training, you’ve got content online about strength training. I’m curious what does your strength training program when you’re also competing in Highland Games? Does it change any from when you were a college athlete, or is it pretty much the same?

Matt Vincent: It’s very, very similar to when I was a collegiate athlete. What I mean by saying that is I’m really not that concerned with, say, my gym Prs., or maxes or my power lifting total. I’m a performance athlete, so since the amount of weight on the bar doesn’t do me a lot of good in a contest, because we’re not lifting bars. I’m trying not to focus so much on it other than just using it as an indicator of progress in the guy. I can’t just get as absolutely as strong as possible. I can do that, but I’m also going to gain a bunch of weight, lose some mobility and be slower. I need to be quick and I need to be flexible, and I need to be strong.

I’ve kept that focus and then I’ve taken some of the stuff I’ve learned over the years of power lifting and strong man that were really effective for getting stronger, and I added those to the program that I didn’t do in college. We really didn’t dead lift much in college. We did a lot of Olympic lifts, but dead lifting really wasn’t … I don’t think I honestly dead lifted until after college. I think it’s a very valuable lift. I think you’d be crazy not to have it in your program.

Brett McKay: You said you need quickness for the Highland Games. What aspect does quickness or athleticism come into the .. Like throwing a sheaf over your head.

Matt Vincent: The Highland Games is really all about application of force and power. What I mean by that is accelerating mass. You look at someone who, say, has a 700 pound squat. If that person is going to squat and kind of grind it out and take two seconds on a way up, like a big, hydraulic, slow, strong lift. That doesn’t translate well me throwing something that weighs 16 pounds. I need to be able to accelerate that object in as short amount of time as possible, so I need horsepower. Then, I’ve also got to be able to be quick enough to use the momentum of me moving my body or spinning and rotating so that I can apply force for a longer time. If you’re going to throw a punch, you’re not just going to have your shoulders square and then throw a six inch jack. You want to turn your shoulders away from it, and push the hips first, and then really throw a hay maker.

Brett McKay: That makes sense.

Matt Vincent: You need that speed to apply that force, instead of just, you know, a 600 pound bench press, right.

Brett McKay: How do you battle with our programming? How do you balance athleticism with getting big and strong, because I’m sure getting big and strong, because I’m sure getting big and strong helps in throwing more weight.

Matt Vincent: Of course.

Brett McKay: There’s a fine line, you said that if you just focus on getting big and strong, you’re going to fat, but that could be a detriment to …

Matt Vincent: Or, just bigger, right.

Brett McKay: Just bigger, right.

Matt Vincent: Poor mass, a lot of times can lead to some impingement and movement, things like that that are going to keep you from hitting positions that will be better. What I do is i keep conditioning in my program. I like being able to move. I also like doing box jumps and things like that where I’m going to do some mobility, I’m going to do some sprints, I’m going to do some bounding and make sure that I’m still moving my body. I think it’s really important as an athlete that you knowing how to manipulate your own body weight is kind of key, how to adjust yourself in space and move quickly. I do speed work as well as the Olympic lifts. Keep moving weight violently and fast.

Brett McKay: In one of your books, you talk about your program. It’s a five week program that can be used by any athlete, really, and it’s called …

Matt Vincent: The Hate.

Brett McKay: The Hate, but you spell it H with roman numeral eight. I’ll be honest with you, I finally figured this out not too long ago. For the longest time, because, you have a brand, right, that’s called the Hate. I always thought it was heavy. I was like “Oh, he’s spelling heavy different,” then I was like, “oh no, hviii, that makes sense.”

Matt Vincent: This started my brother and i actually kind of talking about it. It was always something we looked at athletes, right. Athletes that had that different drive than your normal people. Those guys that were willing to get up and do the work and push themselves harder. Look man, if I was really happy, I would just lay on the couch and play video games, just be content, and that would be great. For some reason, my brain just isn’t going to allow it. I’m going to get up and do what I can to make myself better. Go train by myself in the garage, or, you know, get up when it’s cold and do those necessary things. They’re not always the most fun, but it’s for the greater good. My program, the Hviii was really basically a condensed version of my program, the long program with strength lab or training lab, that … Here’s five weeks, quick rotation, and just allows you to, you don’t want to think about a whole lot or reprogram every five weeks. It was my answer to my version of 531, basically. This is going to build strength and power. You’re still going to get the Olympic lifts, you’re still going to do some speed work, and you’re still going to work on max strength.

Brett McKay: How does it differ from 531?

Matt Vincent: Five, three, one doesn’t focus on any Olympic lifts, and with a three day program, my Hviii, day three is Olympic lift, and you’re going to snatch and clean.

Brett McKay: It seems like your approach is also like sub-maximal loading.

Matt Vincent: Yes, which is very 531. That’s one of Jim’s big principles. Jim has been a huge influence and a really good friend for the last five or six years. I had a weird spot writing the program, because I knew there were a lot of similarities to it and at the end of the day, if it ain’t broke, I’m not going to rewrite it just so I can say this is original.

Brett McKay: For our listeners who aren’t familiar with it, what is sub-maximal loading? What’s the benefit of doing it?

Matt Vincent: For me, and what I believe sub-maximal training is, right, is you’re going to use less weight and do more reps. Not quite like a body building style. I’m not talking about doing sets of fifteen or twenty to really get the pump. I’m going stuff at 75, 85, and 95% weight. I’m very, very rarely, if ever going to take anything to a max single. I really save that for the platform. If I’m going to risk getting hurt with a maximal weight, I may as well do it on the platform while I’m competing. It takes a lot of ego out of training. I’m not missing any lifts in training. Not missing lifts, for me, is the accumulation of work that’s going to make you stronger. I feel like singles and heavy singles are more of a test than they are an actual strength building exercise.

The sub-maximal aspect of that is what I do to build my program is I take my true max, and then I multiply that times 90%, and I treat that as my training max. Then, I build all of my program off of that number. What that allows me to do is like I said, never miss a rep during training. Man, life gets in the way. I’m not 19 years old and 20, and I’m not in college to where I’m just, you know, eating and sleeping, and going to track practice. I’ve got other things and responsibilities in my life; and not every day is great, so what this does is just allows me to kind of auto regulate a little bit more and say “I can get the work done.” If things feel great on the last set, I can push a rep max. The key is accumulation of work with the lighter weight instead of putting something on the bar and saying, “Oh, shit, I think I can go for a PR,” and add 15 pounds and risk the injury. A max weight is going to be a higher risk of injury for an athlete than a lower weight, right.

Doing that is going to allow you to be a little bit smarter in training and think which one actually makes more progress. Should I go for that PR so I can be excited that I put more weight on the bar or do I hit what I was able to hit for three now for five.

Brett McKay: Who is the Hviii for? Is it for anyone, like even someone who doesn’t compete.

Matt Vincent: It’s for myself. The Hviii is kind of a personal mantra, right. It’s a little bit of self motivation through self loathing and it’s not listening to your own brain trying to get in your own way. You know, “I’m tired,” or, “I need to rest,” or, “I deserve this or this and that,” and the truth is, you don’t. What you should do is work and do your job every day. If that thing you care about is training, get in and do the work. Some days aren’t going to be great and some days are. You’ve got to do all of it to make the good days good. This program, for me, is any athlete looking to perform better. If you’re doing a bodybuilding routine, this probably isn’t for you.

Brett McKay: If you’re concerned about six-pack abs and being chiseled …

Matt Vincent: No clue what that’s like, anyway, all of that happens in the kitchen anyway, it has nothing to do with your gym time.

Brett McKay: Right, exactly, that’s something I’ve learned. It takes a long time for you to finally learn that, it’s like, “OK, just diet.”

Matt Vincent: I wish that I could just say that. “Man if I could just get on the treadmill a little bit more,” these abs. It’s amazing to me that the logic of, “If I want my biceps bigger, right, I can do, say, curls, and do a bunch of sets of curls. Say, do a hundred reps a day of curls of some sort, and my biceps will better.

However, people believe that if they want their stomachs to shrink, they should do the exact same thing with their abs. Muscles don’t react that way, they grow.

Brett McKay: That’s an interesting question. With the competition that you do, how does your diet look? I’m sure it’s not looking like a body builder’s diet, I’m sure you’re eating for performance.

Matt Vincent: No, that’s correct. It’s … Vanity plays itself into my head plenty, and I don’t want to be totally gross, but at the same time, I know that I compete my best when I’m between 270 and 280 pounds. Whatever I can do to stay in that. Once I get below that I really start feeling weak. Your leverages all change on the events … How far I have to lean or how hard I have to sprint. Stuff like that. In that window is really where I perform my best. I keep my diet to keep me in that range. I just keep trying to lose fat but stay there. What I’ve found that works the best for me, and, you know, not just works the best for me, but is conducive to the life I live. I do travel quite a bit, and I like enjoying myself. Abs are cool and all, but I wouldn’t skip some delicious dinners with my wife to have abs. You know, so I follow a more keto approach, which is high fat, high protein, and very limited carbs. I pretty much will just save my carbs for bourbon, whenever the time is right.

Brett McKay: There you go. I have a question about the mental aspect of your sport and your training. How do you deal with that? Is there … How do you overcome plateaus, how do you deal with setbacks, k mean, what is your mental game like?

Matt Vincent: Mine is a little different. I mean, injuries are going to happen, right. That just kind of comes with the territory, and look, father time is undefeated. No one is going to make it out of this thing all the way without scars. If you did, you probably lived a really boring life. Injuries are going to happen, and setbacks happen. You just keep trying to figure out whether, you know, you take one step back to make some steps forward, or you take a side-step. You know, if my knee is bothering me, maybe I’ll box squat for the next two weeks, you know, a little high. I don’t have anybody in my gym telling me, giving me white lights, and I don’t have the ego anymore to say, “Well, I’ve got to bury all of these squats.” What I want to do is perform better and I perform my best when I’m not hurt. I can still fatigue my legs and get plenty of work in, without having to squat all the way to the bottom. You know, completely below parallel.

Brett McKay: Got you. Right. What keeps you going, right? You’re saying you’re chasing Daniel, right, in the competition.

Matt Vincent: Sure.

Brett McKay: What keeps you … Is it like trying to beat yourself or do you really want to beat him one day? How do you deal with that aspect?

Matt Vincent: It’s trying to be the best I can be. That’s really my concern is just self optimization. I want to give it the most I’ve got while my body is still willing to give it a go. I don’t ever want to look back and question like “Maybe I should have done this,” or, “what if I had trained harder,” or “what if I would have done this?” I know I’m doing everything I can to give it a go. The cards are going to fall where they fall. Dan and I are different athletes, and I’ve beat him some and he’s beat me some. How far he throws is completely, has nothing to do with how far I throw. That’s his goals and his things. Some days, the cards … I’m going to throw really well, and the cards fall in my favor, but I’ve also had days where I’ve thrown very, very well, and been proud of it, and just didn’t have enough to beat it. I’m not interested in him doing poorly so that I succeed.

Brett McKay: It seems like there’s a lot of camaraderie in that sport, in the Highland Games.

Matt Vincent: Of course. Man, that’s all of the fringe strength sports I’ve found. Your Strong Man, power lifting, and especially toward the top end, right, your professional classes in those sports have it a lot more. I guess we’ve all been part of sports at this point that we understand that no one really cares. That eliminates a lot of the ego. Like, I’m not going to be famous, I’m not going to … I don’t need to go have a discussion with Reese Hoffa, for example, you know, Olympic shot putter, about how we’re both world champions. He is, I do this other thing. I’m very good at it and I love the Highland Games, but keep in perspective what we’re doing, I throw rocks in a field. That helps me keep that. The camaraderie is great, because there’s probably only 20 of us that are at the top end in the world. Every time I go to a contest, you know, 17 or 18 times a year, it’s some 12 of us out of that 20 guys, so you see the same guys every weekend. We’re not really head to head. Everyone is just trying to go out and do their best and enjoy the fact that we get paid to travel and there’s prize money and all of this for this sport that not that many people know about. It’s fantastic. I’ve loved every minute that I’ve spent doing Highland games.

Brett McKay: You mentioned time is fleeting for you. Are you in your 30s, I’m guessing?

Matt Vincent: Yeah, I’m 32, I’ll be 33 in April. Goodness, that will be quick.

Brett McKay: We’re the same age, then. How much longer do you think you’ll be doing this and what do you plan on doing after you have to hang up your caber tossing shoes.

Matt Vincent: After I hang up the kilt, huh?

Brett McKay: Yeah, hang up the kilt.

Matt Vincent: You know, I don’t know. I think, when I’m done doing this that strength will become less of a focus for me. Look, I’m 280 pounds. I’m not interested on being a 280 pound 45-year-old. That’s a really bad idea. Much less, it’s a much worse idea to be a 280 50-year-old, they tend to die. I’ll probably work on losing weight and doing some body composition stuff. I’ll find something else I’m into, whether I get into some cross fit or I get more into cycling like I have been. I’m definitely not an endurance athlete, but I like spending time on the bike. I’ll find something else to do to you know, care more about diet, and try to figure out that when I don’t have to worry about being strong.

Brett McKay: Do you think you’ll stay connected to the sport in some way as a coach or mentor?

Matt Vincent: I don’t know. That’s never been the goal, but as long as I can still be valuable and help people out. I’ve really enjoyed the online coaching and stuff, the little bit that I’ve done of it. As far as how long do I see myself doing this, I mean, I’ve seen guys be competitive on the world scale at almost 40. I’m going to stop when it’s not fun anymore and right now, it’s still a lot of fun. My body hurts. My body is going to, I think, quit before I’m willing to quit. That’s just from I’ve just abused my body for the last two decades and I’ve not been that nice to it. It’s probably been in the last three years that I’ve understood recovery and properly doing things like that, you know. When it’s no longer fun. Whenever I’m not willing to do what it takes to train for it. I’m not going to be a guy who just phones it in. I can’t see myself becoming a guy that’s finishing tenth in the world and still grinding at that. I will probably very happily hang up my shoes and be ready to watch whoever is next.

Brett McKay: Got you. Matt, this has been a great conversation, and a lot of insights about a sport that I knew little about. Where can we find out more about you and your work out there?

Matt Vincent: Best place to find me would be mattvincent.net, or the hviii.com. And that’s spelled hviii. YouTube, I’ve got a lot of information going up, and that channel is Matthew Vincent. Those are really your best places. Instagram is I hviii Matt Vincent, spelled the same way as before. I try to vlog and document and kind of do everything I’m doing. I’ve been very fortunate to be part of a sport that allows me to travel around the world and do some pretty awesome stuff. I try to share as much of that, and the connections I’ve made over the last couple of years in strength training to some other really awesome people.

Brett McKay: Matt Vincent, thanks so much for your time, it’s been a pleasure.

Matt Vincent: Yeah, it was great, man, I had a great time.

Brett McKay: My guest today was Matt Vincent. He is a Highland Games champion and competitor, and you can find more information about his work at MattVincent.net. Just search for him on Instagram, he’s got a really entertaining Instagram feed as well as find him on YouTube. That wraps up another edition to the Art of Manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice, make sure you check out the art of manliness website at the artofmanliness.com. If you enjoyed this podcast, I’d really appreciate it if you’d give us a review on iTunes or Stitcher, it would really help us out in our rankings there. As always, I appreciate your support, and until next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.