{"id":59569,"date":"2016-09-29T14:02:09","date_gmt":"2016-09-29T19:02:09","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.artofmanliness.com\/?p=59569"},"modified":"2025-09-08T05:26:04","modified_gmt":"2025-09-08T10:26:04","slug":"podcast-239-saving-marriage-starts","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/beta.artofmanliness.com\/relationships\/marriage\/podcast-239-saving-marriage-starts\/","title":{"rendered":"Podcast #239: Saving Your Marriage Before It Starts"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"art19-web-player awp-medium awp-theme-dark-blue\" data-episode-id=\"78612155-d18c-468b-8fc1-d10436cbb5e6\"><\/div>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">If you\u2019re a man on the precipice of marriage or have marriage as a life goal, one worry you likely have is \u201cWill my marriage last?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.artofmanliness.com\/articles\/psa-half-of-marriages-no-longer-end-in-divorce\/\">While divorce rates have been decreasing<\/a> since they reached their peak in the late 1970s and early &#8217;80s, there&#8217;s still a perception out there that marriage is just a crapshoot&nbsp;&#8212;&nbsp;a game of Russian roulette&nbsp;&#8212;&nbsp;and that the odds favor you ending up in a family court, or at best in a sad and loveless relationship.&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p3\"><span class=\"s1\">My guest today&nbsp;argues that doesn\u2019t have to be your fate as long as you take a proactive approach to marriage. With some thought and intentionality, you can help ensure that you have a happy, loving, fulfilling relationship that lasts until death do you part. His name is Les Parrott and he\u2019s a clinical psychologist specializing in marriage and family. He, along with his wife Leslie,&nbsp;who&#8217;s also a marriage therapist,&nbsp;have written a book to help couples prepare themselves for matrimonial&nbsp;commitment. It\u2019s called&nbsp;<i><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/B00UF72CMW\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=390957&amp;creativeASIN=B00UF72CMW&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=stucosuccess&amp;linkId=FSXA3GZUT5SFDAZ4\">Saving Your Marriage Before It Starts: Seven Questions to Ask Before \u2014 And After \u2014 You Marry<\/a>.&nbsp;<\/i><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p3\"><span class=\"s3\">Today<\/span><span class=\"s1\">&nbsp;on the show, Les and I discuss how a man can know if he\u2019s personally ready for marriage, the myths people have about marriage that set them up for disappointment, and the conversations you should be having with your future spouse to help ensure you have a happy life together. While the conversation is geared towards soon-to-be-marrieds and newlyweds, even if you\u2019ve been married for a couple decades, you\u2019re going to find some useful advice and insights in this show.<\/span><\/p>\n<h3 id=\"title\" class=\"a-size-large a-spacing-none\">Show Highlights<\/h3>\n<ul>\n<li>How to know if you&#8217;re ready for marriage<\/li>\n<li>Why self-awareness is paramount for a successful relationship<\/li>\n<li>The five attitudes towards marriage Millennials have<\/li>\n<li>The effectiveness of pre-marital counseling in helping stave off divorce<\/li>\n<li>What happy marriages look like<\/li>\n<li>The expectations people have coming into marriage that can set them up for failure<\/li>\n<li>The unspoken rules and unconscious roles in a marriage<\/li>\n<li>The three factors that contribute to lasting love<\/li>\n<li>How love changes as a relationship progresses and how to nurture it through the years<\/li>\n<li>Why marriages are their strongest after 25+ years<\/li>\n<li>How to cultivate passion in a long-term relationship<\/li>\n<li>The saboteurs of marriage<\/li>\n<li>The different needs of men and women in a relationship<\/li>\n<li>Why conflict is good for a relationship and how to have a &#8220;good fight&#8221;<\/li>\n<li>What couples who have been married for awhile, but are experiencing marital problems, can do to solve them<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h3>Resources\/Studies\/People Mentioned in Podcast<\/h3>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.symbis.com\/\">SYMBISassessment.com<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Neil_Clark_Warren\">Neil Clark Warren<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.artofmanliness.com\/people\/relationships\/how-do-you-know-when-shes-the-one\/\">How Do You Know She&#8217;s the One<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.artofmanliness.com\/articles\/podcast-204-how-to-be-miserable\/\">My podcast with Randy Paterson on How to be Miserable<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.artofmanliness.com\/articles\/psa-half-of-marriages-no-longer-end-in-divorce\/\">Half of Marriages No Longer End in Divorce<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.artofmanliness.com\/articles\/podcast-103-love-factually-with-dr-duana-welch\/\">My podcast with Duana Welch about love and marriage<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Robert_Sternberg\">Robert Sternberg<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.artofmanliness.com\/articles\/podcast-151-the-way-of-the-stoic-warrior\/\">My podcast with Nancy Sherman about&nbsp;<em>The Way of the Stoic Warrior<\/em><\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/2sVawkm\"><i>The Good Fight: How Conflict Can Bring You Closer<\/i><\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.artofmanliness.com\/articles\/how-and-why-to-hold-a-weekly-marriage-meeting\/\">The Importance of Marriage Meetings<\/a> (and <a href=\"https:\/\/www.artofmanliness.com\/articles\/podcast-611-how-a-weekly-marriage-meeting-can-strengthen-your-relationship\/\">our interview with Marcia<\/a>)<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter wp-image-59570 size-full\" src=\"https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2016\/09\/Screen-Shot-2016-09-21-at-12.25.08-PM.png\" alt=\"Saving your marriage before it starts book cover Les and Leslie parrot.\" width=\"450\" height=\"550\" srcset=\"https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2016\/09\/Screen-Shot-2016-09-21-at-12.25.08-PM.png 450w, https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2016\/09\/Screen-Shot-2016-09-21-at-12.25.08-PM-320x391.png 320w, https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2016\/09\/Screen-Shot-2016-09-21-at-12.25.08-PM-400x489.png 400w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 450px) 100vw, 450px\" \/><\/p>\n<p><span id=\"ebooksProductTitle\" class=\"a-size-extra-large\"><em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/B00UF72CMW\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=390957&amp;creativeASIN=B00UF72CMW&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=stucosuccess&amp;linkId=FSXA3GZUT5SFDAZ4\">Saving Your Marriage Before It Starts<\/a>&nbsp;<\/em>is filled with research-backed insights and actionable steps that about-to-be married or newlywed couples can use to make sure their marriage starts off on the right foot. Even if you&#8217;ve been married for a few years, you&#8217;re going to find the book useful. Also, consider taking the Parrotts&#8217;&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.symbis.com\/\">SYMBIS Assessment<\/a> with your spouse for further insights about your marriage.&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<h3>Listen to the Podcast! (And don\u2019t forget to leave us a review!)<\/h3>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/the-art-of-manliness\/id332516054?mt=2\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter wp-image-49206 size-full\" src=\"https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2015\/07\/available-on-itunes.png\" alt=\"Available on itunes.\" width=\"250\" height=\"92\" data-pin-nopin=\"true\"\/><\/a><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.stitcher.com\/show\/the-art-of-manliness\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter wp-image-49207 size-full\" src=\"https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2015\/07\/available-on-stitcher.png\" alt=\"Available on stitcher.\" width=\"250\" height=\"92\" data-pin-nopin=\"true\"\/><\/a><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/artofmanliness\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter wp-image-49208 size-full\" src=\"https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2015\/07\/soundcloud-logo.png\" alt=\"Soundcloud logo.\" width=\"250\" height=\"127\"\/><\/a><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/pcasts.in:443\/NwCI\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter wp-image-49655\" src=\"https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/\/2015\/08\/pocketcasts.png\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 225px) 100vw, 225px\" srcset=\"\" alt=\"Pocketcasts.\" width=\"225\" height=\"225\"\/><\/a><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/play.google.com\/music\/managemusic?t=The_Art_of_Manliness\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter wp-image-56926 size-full\" src=\"https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2016\/05\/google-play-podcast-e1464287132541.png\" alt=\"Google play podcast.\" width=\"250\" height=\"190\"\/><\/a><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/16533.mc.tritondigital.com:443\/OMNY_THEARTOFMANLINESS_P\/media-session\/4eecc361-f330-4222-8c98-7e7c94429fa8\/d\/clips\/aaea4e69-af51-495e-afc9-a9760146922b\/6081eee7-c459-4e12-a1ab-aadc000fc4a7\/6ed39a66-b108-4002-afbb-aadc001e3442\/audio\/direct.mp3?t=1583760992\">Download this episode.<\/a><\/p>\n<p><a class=\"hs-rss-link\" href=\"https:\/\/www.omnycontent.com\/d\/playlist\/aaea4e69-af51-495e-afc9-a9760146922b\/6081eee7-c459-4e12-a1ab-aadc000fc4a7\/413a6904-4d72-4be8-9421-aadc000fc4ba\/podcast.rss\">Subscribe to the podcast in the media player of your choice.<\/a><\/p>\n<h3>Connect with Les<\/h3>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.lesandleslie.com\/\">Les&#8217; Website<\/a><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/mobile.twitter.com\/lesparrott\">Les on Twitter<\/a><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/lesandleslieparrott\/\">Les on Facebook<\/a><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/ctt.ec\/q_a46\">Tell Les &#8220;Thanks&#8221; for being on the podcast via Twitter<\/a><\/p>\n<h3>Podcast Sponsors<\/h3>\n<p><strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.designcrowd.com\/partner\/Manliness?utm_medium=partner&amp;utm_source=Manliness&amp;utm_campaign=Manliness\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"external noopener noreferrer\">DesignCrowd.<\/a>&nbsp;<\/strong>Get your next business logo or website design from a DesignCrowd designer.&nbsp;Save up to $100 on your first design by visiting&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.designcrowd.com\/partner\/Manliness?utm_medium=partner&amp;utm_source=Manliness&amp;utm_campaign=Manliness\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"external noopener noreferrer\">designcrowd.com\/manliness<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p><strong><a href=\"https:\/\/mackweldon.com\/pages\/18-hour-jersey?utm_medium=direct&amp;utm_source=podcast\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"external noopener noreferrer\">Mack Weldon.<\/a>&nbsp;<\/strong>Get great-looking underwear and undershirts that eliminate odor. Use discount code \u201cAOM\u201d for 20% off your first purchase from Mack Weldon.<\/p>\n<p><strong><a href=\"https:\/\/fractureme.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"external noopener noreferrer\">Fracture.<\/a><\/strong> Rescue your photos from the digital ether by printing them directly on to glass with Fracture. Get 10% off your first order by visiting <a href=\"https:\/\/fractureme.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"external noopener noreferrer\">fractureme.com\/podcast<\/a>. In the survey, let them know you heard about them from the Art of Manliness.<\/p>\n<h3>Read the Transcript<\/h3>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. If you&#8217;re a man on the precipice of marriage or have marriage as a life goal, one more you likely have is will my marriage even last? While divorce rates have been decreasing, they reached their peaks in the late 1970s and early \u201880s, there\u2019s still a perception out there that marriage is just a crap shoot, a game of Russian roulette and if the odds favor, you ending up in a family court or at best, in a sad and loveless relationship.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>My guest today on the show argues that that doesn\u2019t have to be your fate so long as you take your proactive approach to marriage. With some thought and intentionality, you can help ensure that you have a happy, loving, fulfilling relationship that lasts until death do you part. His name is Les Parrott and he\u2019s a clinical psychologist specializing in marriage and family. He, along with his wife, Leslie who\u2019s also a marriage therapist, have written a book to help couples pair themselves for matrimonial commitment. It\u2019s called Saving Your Marriage Before It Starts: Seven Questions to Ask Before and After You Marry.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>Today on the show, Les and I discuss how a man can know if he\u2019s personally ready for marriage, the myths that people have about marriage that set them up for disappointment, the mindsets people have about marriage, particularly millennials, and the conversations you should be having with your future spouse to help ensure that you have a happy life together. While the conversation today is geared towards soon to be married and newlyweds, even if you&#8217;ve been married for a couple of decades, you&#8217;re going to find some useful advice and insights in this show. After the show, make sure to check out the show notes at aom.is\/parrot. It\u2019s P-A-R-R-O-T just like the bird for links to resources where you can delve deeper into this topic. Dr. Les Parrott, welcome to the show.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Les Parrott<\/strong>: Thanks. Good to be with you. Appreciate being on.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: You&#8217;re a clinical psychologist that specializes in marriage and relationships and you work with your wife, Leslie, who\u2019s also a marriage and family therapist. You work on helping other people have good, strong families and marriages. You\u2019ve written several books. The book we\u2019re going to talk about today is Saving Your Marriage Before It Starts which is all about helping people get on the right path towards a strong and happy marriage. Before we get into specifics of what engaged couples can do, people who are about to get married, to have a good, strong marriage, let\u2019s talk about the individual first because I\u2019ve gotten questions over the years from guys who they want to get married, they\u2019re dating a girl and they\u2019re like, \u201cI think this is the woman I want to ask to be my wife,\u201d but they\u2019re not sure if they\u2019re ready individually to make that commitment to marriage and they\u2019ve wondered if how do they know they\u2019re ready for marriage. Based on your experience and your research, are there things people can look for in themselves to know that they\u2019re ready to be married?<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Les Parrott<\/strong>: I love that question. It\u2019s a good place to start. By the way, I should say related to that introduction, my wife and I have do have the exact same name that people are confused. I\u2019m Leslie and she\u2019s Leslie. We\u2019re both psychologists. It does get confusing but that\u2019s why I go by Les. It\u2019s also why we named our first son John. No more confusion there. I love your question because it really does begin with the individual.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>In fact, Leslie and I, man, this had to be 18 years ago, sitting around a dining room table in Los Angeles with a fellow named Neil Clark Warren. If his name sounds familiar, it\u2019s because he\u2019s the guy in the eHarmony commercials. We\u2019re sitting around this dining room table when the idea for eHarmony first was being explored. We ended up working with that company for 10 years and working on that matching mechanism and all that kind of thing with folks. We have fantastic team there. I remember asking Neil that night in the midst of that conversation, \u201cHey. If you could only give one word of advice to a person about to be married, what would it be?\u201d I remember the answer was just like on the tip of his tongue. He didn\u2019t have to think for a split second. He said, \u201cGet yourself healthy before you get yourself married.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>That is such an essential thing and such kind of a quippy little thing to say that have such profound depth. Get yourself healthy before you get yourself married. Why is that? Your marriage can only be as healthy as you are. In fact, your relationships can only be as healthy as you are whether it\u2019s marriage or anything else. We had spent a lot of time in our own research and writing looking at how do you have relationship readiness. In fact, my wife and I even teach a class at our university here in Seattle where we live. It\u2019s Relationships 101. It\u2019s a class that is offered at 6:00 in the evening on Mondays, not primetime for undergrads and yet it\u2019s the largest class in our campus.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>We start off that first lecture telling these students, \u201cIt doesn\u2019t matter to me whether you take any notes. That\u2019s up to you and how you want to function except tonight, I want you to write down one single sentence.\u201d I build the sentence up and I\u2019d finally give it to them. It\u2019s so relevant to your question. I want to give it to you and our listeners. Here\u2019s the sentence. If you try to build intimacy with another person before you&#8217;ve done the difficult work of getting whole or healthy on your own, all your relationships become an attempt to complete yourself.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>In other words, we start to treat others as a shortcut towards our well-being. That\u2019s a lot of pressure to put on somebody else. That\u2019s the big answer. We can drill down on that if you want a little bit in how do you get healthy but that\u2019s fundamental to any relationship because your relationship can only be as healthy as you are.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Let\u2019s drill down a bit. How do you get healthy for a relationship, or whole?<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Les Parrott<\/strong>: There are several things. One of the hallmarks of psychological well-being and health is self-awareness. You&#8217;re aware of issues in your life that you need to be working on. The unhealthy person just goes around without any sense of their jaggedness, how they\u2019re rubbing people the wrong way and how they\u2019re interfacing with people in a non-productive fashion and so forth. Self-awareness is paramount. That\u2019s why I always suggest if somebody wants to get serious about working on this, that they invite a mentor into their life, somebody that\u2019s objective and has their best interest in mind that will serve as the proverbial mirror in front of them. That\u2019s just one practical step.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>Here\u2019s some hallmarks of psychological health. One is what I call unswerving authenticity. This has to do with being true to you. I can\u2019t tell us as a psychologist how many times I\u2019ve had somebody come in my counseling office suffering from that proverbial disease to please. You know what I mean? They\u2019re thinking, \u201cOh, man. Maybe if I accomplish this goal over here, I\u2019ll get the respect of this group. Maybe if I get on to this team, so and so would be impressed or maybe if I do this, my parents will give me their blessing or win the heart of this young lady,\u201d or whatever it might be. They end up doing things that aren\u2019t authentic. A healthy person knows, \u201cHey, this is the path I\u2019m traveling and nobody can sway me from that because I got to be true to who I am in spite of what anybody else might say, think or do.\u201d That\u2019s foundational.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>That leads to a second one and that is what I call self-giving love. Two of the most healthy among us are people that can transcend their own boundaries and recognize other people\u2019s needs and put empathy into practice and see needs that are unique to that person because most of us, if we\u2019re not intentional, we project our own neediness on other people and then meet those needs thinking we\u2019re really being a loving person when all we\u2019re really doing is loving ourselves. Does that make sense? It\u2019s kind of convoluted but it happens so frequently.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>Those are a few things. Self-awareness is paramount and it begins the process. You can only change something, you can only work on something once you&#8217;re aware of it. Then, you got to be true to you and then, you got to give yourself away. The more you give yourself away, the more loving you are to other people in an altruistic sense, the higher much you will get in psychological well-being.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Let\u2019s talk about \u2026 You mentioned earlier on before we got on the interview this assessment that you did about young people\u2019s attitude towards marriage, this big survey you did. You mentioned there\u2019s five attitudes that a lot of young people these days have about marriage. What are those five attitudes that people have about marriage these days?<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Les Parrott<\/strong>: I appreciate you asking this because my wife and I wrote this book, Saving Your Marriage Before It Starts, we wrote this years ago and really out of our own desire to help our own university students here in Seattle, had no idea that the book would be used by more than a million couples, that Oprah would have us on and Barbara Walters and all the rest. It\u2019s been a phenomenal ride with that book. A few years ago, a publisher called us, HarperCollins, and said, \u201cHey, this book just seems to keep going and going. Let\u2019s revive it. Let\u2019s update it.\u201d That\u2019s publisher speak for let\u2019s put a new cover on it. We said, \u201cYou know, let\u2019s do it the right way.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>We began to do a lot of research around what does it take for lifelong love. It was out of that that we devised this assessment that we can come back to called the SYMBIS assessment. In the context of building that, we did this massive study through the University of Chicago looking at single adults between the ages of 18 and 35 and trying to understand what is their attitude toward marriage, what we call their marriage mindset. This isn\u2019t about any particular relationship. It\u2019s just about how do they feel about marriage in general, just the enterprise of marriage. What we discovered is they fall into one of five categories and they\u2019re pretty predictable. It\u2019s actually quite fascinating. Let me list these five off and give you a little sense for each one of them.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ll start with R. The first is the resolute mindset. Now, these are people, anybody that\u2019s listening to us right now that is thinking marriage is for life for me. Divorce is not even in my vocabulary. I can\u2019t imagine not being married because it\u2019s always been a part of my life plan. That\u2019s the resolute mindset. These people are gung-ho on marriage.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>The next category is what we call, after resolute, is rational. The rational mindset, and feel free to interrupt me along the way on any of these, but the rational mindset is the person that, \u201cYeah, I believe in marriage but I know it\u2019s going to be really hard work. In fact, I probably would go \u2026 or I saw how not to be married and I don&#8217;t want to go through that but I still believe in marriage.\u201d These people will tend to get married later. There\u2019s more men in this category than women, by the way, the rational approach.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>The third category after resolute and rational is romantic. These people, this tends to be populated more by women than men, just the opposite of rational. The romantic approach has an attitude of wanting to write this incredible love story because nobody\u2019s ever experienced this kind of love on the planet before and they love words like soul mate and finding the one and so forth. If it doesn\u2019t work out for them, they tend to think, \u201cWell, it wasn\u2019t the one. I got duped somehow.\u201d They tend to have a higher divorce rate than others.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>After that category, there\u2019s two more and that\u2019s restless \u2026 This is an interesting category because you ask these folks, \u201cHey, do you plan on getting married someday?\u201d \u201cYeah, maybe, but it\u2019s really not on my list right now because I\u2019m having too much fun.\u201d These are people that love to party. These are people that love just \u2026 They\u2019re just having a blast. They\u2019re just thinking like marriage is the last thing on their list of considerations. The only way you find these people in a counselor\u2019s office doing some pre-marriage work is when there\u2019s some kind of crises. Maybe there\u2019s been an unexpected pregnancy or there\u2019s financial pressure or there\u2019s something else going on.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>Then, the last category after resolute, rational, romantic, restless, the last category is reluctant. These are people that don\u2019t believe in marriage at all. It\u2019s just a piece of paper. Why would I ever get married? They\u2019re very cynical just about the whole enterprise. Every young adult between the ages of 18 to 35 will fall into one of those five categories. That\u2019s helpful information especially if you&#8217;re preparing for lifelong love with another person because you want to know what their mindset is as well and the combination of those two mindsets can tell you a lot about the road ahead for the two of you. Does that make sense?<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: That makes perfect sense. I\u2019m curious, is there one mindset in particular that has a lion\u2019s share of the people in that mindset in that demographic?<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Les Parrott<\/strong>: Yeah, great question. On average, there\u2019s about 20% in each of these categories. Reluctant is the lowest and then, resolute is the highest, the two anchors on the end of a continuum. When you break it down by some other demographic information, gender\u2019s a big one, that\u2019s when you see more women as romantics and more men as rational. It\u2019s pretty even distribution.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: I think one thing that might put people in that rational or reluctant phase is that they\u2019ve probably seen the statistics about marriage and divorce. I guess the number that\u2019s been floating around is like 50% but there\u2019s studies that show that it\u2019s not as bad. It\u2019s actually decreased since the 1970s when it\u2019s at its peak. Still, it could be sovereign for people. People think marriage is just a crap shoot. Your job as a marital counselor, you&#8217;re doing this premarital counseling, is to help make it less of a crap shoot. What does the research say on the effectiveness of premarital counseling on reducing the chances of divorce?<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Les Parrott<\/strong>: It\u2019s pretty easy to get discouraged because everybody knows someone who\u2019s divorced. You just can\u2019t find anyone that doesn\u2019t know someone that\u2019s divorced so regardless of what the stats are, we\u2019ve all witnessed, pretty much up close and personal, the devastation of a breakup in marriage. Does it make any difference? First of all, let me say that people still believe in marriage. 86% of young adults say they want to get married and 82% of that 86% say they want it to be for life. In other words, nobody, only a very small handful of people are saying, \u201cYeah, I\u2019m going to get married but this is kind of the starter marriage and I\u2019ll find another marriage later on.\u201d Most people say I want it to be for life.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>If they avail themselves of some kind of premarital education or counseling that does more than just focus on the ceremony, we know for a fact that they lower their chances of divorce by 31%. We also know that they raise their level of fulfillment and happiness and contentment in that relationship by at least a third. There\u2019s no doubt that premarital education is helpful. In fact, I have two teenage boys. If they want to get married and says, \u201cI don\u2019t need any kind of pre-marriage help,\u201d I\u2019d just go, \u201cAre you kidding me? Look at the facts here. You want to do this for yourself. Trust me.\u201d I can\u2019t imagine anybody not wanting to do that. By the way, the statistics get even higher for success when people will go through some kind of personalized experience like taking an assessment like a SYMBIS assessment that I mentioned a little bit ago.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Let\u2019s talk about, what are we aiming for here? If you&#8217;re in premarital counseling or doing some education, doing some reading and you&#8217;re trying to figure out, \u201cOkay, what can I do to have a strong marriage from the get-go that will last a lifetime?\u201d what are we aiming for? What does the research say on what a happy marriage looks like? What are the traits of a happily married couple?<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Les Parrott<\/strong>: First of all, the more alike you are especially when it comes to your values, the easier and happier life is. Birds of a feather flock together. We sometimes hear people say opposites attract. There is some truth to that. There\u2019s an excitement about being around somebody that\u2019s different than you but as the saying sometimes often go, opposites attract and then they attack because it starts to get under their skin like, \u201cWhy can\u2019t you view the world the same way I do especially when it comes to my values?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m not talking about surface things. I like to ride a Harley and she likes to garden on a Saturday. Those are two very different things. Sure, that can impact the relationship but not as much as what you might believe about having children or some other values that you hold really dear. When it comes to predicting happiness in a marriage, you really want to find somebody that can be as similar to you as possible on the things that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>In addition, we know there\u2019s other marks. We talked about well-being and psychological health. That\u2019s a huge predictor or success and happiness in a marriage but there\u2019s also, we could put a finer point on that, there\u2019s expectations that we bring, that proverbial baggage that we bring into a relationship. All of us do this. It doesn\u2019t matter whether you&#8217;re the epitome of well-being and health. By the way, just going back to that for a second, nobody ever arise\u2026 We can\u2019t ever check that off our list. \u201cHey, I\u2019m totally psychologically healthy now.\u201d We\u2019re always in process. We\u2019re all working on that.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>When you begin to look at expectations, they\u2019re shaped so intensely by the homes that we grew up in. You really want to make sure that what you have in mind, your picture in your mind\u2019s eye of what married life is supposed to be like is similar to what this other person is expecting because if not, we get married and we go, \u201cHey, I thought you love me. A loving husband doesn\u2019t do that. A loving wife doesn\u2019t do that. Why are you doing that?\u201d those kinds of things.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>Then, on a real practical level, another marker is just financial security. We just know that happy couples, not that money can make you happy but that when you&#8217;re on the same page financially \u2026 Inevitably, one of you will feel like more of a spender and one of you more of a saver. That can sometimes feel like opposites. That\u2019s a matter of degree but just making sure you&#8217;ve got some solid footing and you&#8217;re headed in the right direction for financial management, that\u2019s also a huge predictor.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>Age, by the way, a person who gets married at the age of 21 versus 25, their chances of divorce double. Think about that. That\u2019s based on nothing more than just how old they are when they get married. When you look at happiness in marriage, you know that there\u2019s lots of things that go into it but here\u2019s the crux of the matter. Marriage was never ever designed to make a person happy. You make your marriage happy. Let me say that again because this is so key. Marriage isn\u2019t designed to make you happy. You make your marriage happy which basically means it comes down to you and your attitude and that of your partner as well.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: I love that. Let\u2019s go back to these expectations. I thought this was interesting. You have a section in your book about unspoken rules and unconscious roles that people bring into a relationship. I remember when I got married, this came up every now and then. It was like weird moments. It was just like stuff like, \u201cWell, no. This is how you&#8217;re supposed to do x thing in a relationship. This is the tradition. We do it at Christmas. You don\u2019t do it that way.\u201d It\u2019s little tiny things that pop up but you don\u2019t think about before you get married. How do you bring up these unspoken rules and unconscious roles to light before you get married so you&#8217;re all on the same page?<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Les Parrott<\/strong>: Les and I have often joked about how cool it\u2019d be if before a couple got married, you could say, \u201cHey, bring out your invisible rulebooks. Let\u2019s compare notes.\u201d Everybody gets married with a set of rules about how life should work. We don\u2019t even know that we have these rules until we get married and our spouse begins to break our rules. They can be about silly things. \u201cHey, when do you open your presents at the holidays? You don\u2019t do that at Christmas Eve, at Christmas morning?\u201d silly things like that as well as much more significant things that might relate to spiritual beliefs or what have you, values.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>We have these unspoken rules. One of the tasks, I think, for a couple that\u2019s thinking about enjoying lifelong love together is to do their best to uncover these rules. We, sometimes, call them your personal 10 commandments. If you just take some time to think about what was important in your home \u2026 I sometimes liken it to if you could go to your childhood home and maybe up in that figurative attic at least, you&#8217;d find this big dusty trunk that would have your name engraved on the side of it. Underneath it, it would say relationship curriculum. You would think through.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>You pull out file folders of all the, in quotes, I\u2019m doing air quotes here, of all the courses you took as a kid growing up, feelings we don\u2019t talk about in the family, stuff like that. Maybe you took a class in advanced blame-shifting and how to do it. You know what I mean? We learned all kinds of things from our family of origin. When you begin to look at these unspoken rules that you&#8217;re bringing in the relationship and your partner does the same thing, let me tell you, you are solving so many problems in advance and eliminating so many headaches down the road.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>Then, you couple that with unconscious role expectations. They\u2019re closely connected but they\u2019re distinct. The rules are just about how life should be lived. Unconscious role expectations have to do with what a loving husband should do and what a loving wife should do and what they should say and how they should feel. We want to uncover that for them as well because that was shaped by the father that you grew up with, the mom that you grew up with or it\u2019s even shaped by the media, things that you witnessed. That\u2019s the kind of person I want. If a wife is really loving, these are the kinds of things that she would say and think and do. The more you can bring that to the surface and make it conscious, the easier life becomes and the happier your relationship will be.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong> Fantastic. I guess an example of that unconscious role would be a man thinking, \u201cWell, the way I show my love is just working hard and providing for my family.\u201d There might be a woman who came from a family where her dad was very affectionate and spend a lot of time with their family. That\u2019s what she\u2019s expecting but he\u2019s got the complete opposite expectation.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Les Parrott<\/strong>: Right. I\u2019ll give you one other quick illustration. It seems so simple but it was so impactful on this couple that we were working with a while back. They had all these lovely little gifts for wedding presents. They were going to decorate their apartment with some stuff to put on the wall and whatever. It just kept getting put off because in her home growing up, it was always dad who would get out a hammer and nail and a level and put that thing up on the wall. Mom had nothing to do with that. In his home growing up, dad never thought about doing it. That was a woman\u2019s job. She\u2019s the decorator. She\u2019s going to put the stuff on the walls. Here, they were. They were married for about six, seven, eight months and they\u2019re both waiting for the other person to do what, to be a loving spouse because that\u2019s what a loving husband does. That\u2019s what a loving wife does.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>I remember when they came back to see us for what we call a marriage tune-up a few months in the marriage and they were just both distraught over this. We were like, \u201cAre you serious? This is what\u2019s weighing you guys down?\u201d To them, it was as serious as a heart attack. That\u2019s the power of these unconscious role expectations. We build this into our psyche that if this person loves me, this is what they would do. It could something as simple as just hanging a picture on the wall.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Have those conversations before you get married. In the book, you talk about there\u2019s three factors needed for long lasting love in a marriage. What are those three factors and what sorts of conversations should people be having before marriage to ensure that you&#8217;re on the same page when it comes to these factors?<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Les Parrott<\/strong>: Let me preface my comments and my response to this. I\u2019ll give you the three ingredients of romantic love that we know from studies at Yale University by saying that when we divide the SYMBIS assessment \u2026 This is a personalized tool. It takes about 30 minutes to answer these questions. It\u2019s 300-item and all kinds of different \u2026 There\u2019s drag and drop questions, true and false and sliders and radio buttons, all that kind of stuff. You answer this online and you get this 15-page report on your relationship. Your partner does the same thing. One of the pages out of the 15 is dedicated to the three things that I\u2019m going to tell you about and that is love and sexuality.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>Years ago, by the way, if somebody\u2019s interested in that, they can go to symbisassessment.com, S-Y-M-B-I-S. It stands for saving your marriage before it starts. Years ago, at Yale University, there was a professor who did this incredible study on romantic love when nobody else really was doing that. It was too mushy. It wasn\u2019t scholarly enough to study romantic love. His name is Robert Sternberg, by the way. He did this massive study, the first of its kind, to basically answer the question, what are the ingredients of romantic love? He came up with this thing called the triangular theory of love which sounds like an incredible sleeper, right? Did we just lose half of our listeners when I said that? Triangular theory of love, it sounds so academic but I got to tell you, it\u2019s super practical.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>He said that if you just think of love as a triangle and you can visualize three words, one on each side of a triangle where to write them on on the outside of the triangle, the first one is passion. That\u2019s really the biological side of love. Passion is that part of love that just flows with the hormones. There\u2019s nothing particularly noble about it. That\u2019s what gets two people together in the first place. There\u2019s this chemistry that takes place and go, \u201cWow, I got to get to know that person.\u201d That\u2019s passion, biological.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>On the other side of the triangle, you could write the word intimacy and this is the emotional side of love. While passion is biological, intimacy is emotional. This is about all the connectedness. We have things in common that we just go, \u201cOh, wow. Really? You too?\u201d There\u2019s that sense of intimacy that you give me and I give you like nobody else on the planet like, \u201cWow, you like sea swimming. You have some deep understanding of who I am.\u201d It\u2019s great to be known and it\u2019s great to know another person that brings us together. That\u2019s intimacy. We\u2019re reading out the same sheet of music here.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>Then, on the base of the triangle, you can write the word commitment. Commitment is the willful side of love. If passion is biological and intimacy is emotional, commitment is willful. This is that part of love that truly is a decision. This is that part of love that says, \u201cIn spite of all the things in my life I can\u2019t seem to pin down, I have one thing rock solid and that\u2019s my relationship with you.\u201d Now, does that come from your hormones? Of course, not. Does it come from your emotions? No. It comes from your will. Love is a decision, some like to say.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>Those are the three ingredients of romantic love but the research didn\u2019t stop there, just on the identifying the ingredients because here\u2019s what\u2019s important about this. The bottom line of all the research was to show that these ingredients are incredibly fluid. They\u2019re not static. Love is to a static thing you fall into and you fall out of. Love changes. There\u2019s an ebb and flow to it. There\u2019s seasons to it. The love that you have today is not the kind of love you&#8217;re going to have five years from now or five months from now or even five days from now because love changes. There\u2019s a lot of fluidity to it.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s why we always, when we\u2019re doing premarital work with couples, we often work on how do you cultivate those ingredients with passion, intimacy and commitment? If you&#8217;re waking up every morning after you get married and expecting all three of those ingredients to be at 10 out of 10, you&#8217;re going to be totally disappointed because love doesn\u2019t work that way. It takes a lot of attention in all three of those fronts.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: I imagine when people first get married, passion and intimacy probably are stronger. There\u2019s commitment there but it doesn\u2019t require so much will because they have all these emotional and biological drive to be together. Then, that\u2019s going to change as their relationship matures.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Les Parrott<\/strong>: Yeah, that\u2019s exactly right. When you begin to chart out love over the lifespan, you will see what research has called this big inverted bell curve. You have this incredible satisfaction at the beginning. You ask any couple that\u2019s just got married, \u201cHey, how\u2019s your love life?\u201d \u201cIt\u2019s incredible. It\u2019s 10 out of 10. I\u2019m so glad we got married.\u201d Then, you come back five years later, \u201cNot so much 10 out of 10 anymore.\u201d You come back 18 years later and it\u2019s like, \u201cLove life? What\u2019s that?\u201d They have teenagers and junior highs or whatever.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>Here\u2019s the really encouraging news. You come back to that couple 25 years later, \u201cHey, how\u2019s your love life?\u201d What you discover is there\u2019s this new kind of depth and maturity to their love life. Their level of satisfaction is on the rise. In the second half of marriage, a couple\u2019s love life and these three ingredients increase significantly. Now, of course, some couples don\u2019t make it that far and they\u2019re missing out on the very best part of married life but on the second half of married life, the level of satisfaction literally begins to feel off the scale. Social scientists no longer have instruments to measure how happy these couples are. It\u2019s incredible.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>By the way, I don&#8217;t want our listeners to get discouraged saying, \u201cOh, man, so you have to go through this big, huge inverted bell curve and get disappointed.\u201d No. The point of that, that big sociological trend, the point of that is to say if you know the secret, what are the three essential ingredients to love, passion, intimacy and commitment, if you know this, you have the key to unlock lifelong love at its fullest because you&#8217;re going to work on those three things. That\u2019s enough to keep some couples going. We can sometimes think, \u201cOh, there\u2019s another shiny object over here, or whatever.\u201d Just focus on passion, intimacy and commitment and you do the hard work of cultivating those three things and you&#8217;re going to love the life you live together.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: One thing, I think it\u2019s useful to understand for people because the passion is going to be there for \u2026 I guess they say the shelf life or the half-life of romantic love is three years and then, it starts petering out. That\u2019s natural but there\u2019s things you can do so just to expect that. If you don\u2019t feel the fireworks like you felt when you first met your wife, that\u2019s okay. It\u2019s natural but there\u2019s things you can do to cultivate more passion in your marriage.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Les Parrott<\/strong>: That\u2019s absolutely right. In fact, let me give you one practical thing you can do because this research has been incredible. Leslie and I, we\u2019ve been married for 32 years. We discovered this a number of years ago and it is so true in our relationship and lots of other couples. We sometimes talk about date night after you get married. So much emphasis is put on dating before you get married but after you get married, it\u2019s just as important to continue dating your whole life together. What happens is we get stuck in a rut. We go to our favorite restaurant because, \u201cOh, I love the lasagna there. Then, let\u2019s go catch the latest movie.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>We do that. Then, we come home. It\u2019s kind of a dinner and a movie and that\u2019s it. Nothing wrong with that. That\u2019s great but here\u2019s what the research shows. When a couple, especially a married couple that\u2019s been married for a while, will do a date that is novel. In other words, they\u2019re doing some activity that they\u2019ve never done or they haven\u2019t done in a long time together. What happens is they have this chemical brain shower of all these, in fact all these emotions that they haven\u2019t had since they fell in love and were dating in the early stages of their relationship.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>That experience of doing new and exciting things together, it doesn\u2019t have to be elaborate. It doesn\u2019t have to be expensive. I\u2019m not talking about that. In fact, the study had these couples Velcro their wrists and their ankles together and they had to go through this obstacle course. They compared what happened at the end of that date versus a couple that went out to a romantic dinner and a movie. Who do you think is talking the most after that? Who do you think was the most energized after that? They\u2019re going, \u201cOh, I can\u2019t believe we beat that in a couple and we made it over that one thing. I can\u2019t believe we went to that tunnel. That was crazy.\u201d It brings about all this new, dormant chemical of falling in love that hasn\u2019t been around for a while. Be innovative in your dating world.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: I love that. It\u2019s great practical advice. Focus on these three aspects of the love triangle, intimacy, passion, commitment but even if you&#8217;re focusing on those things, there might be what you call saboteurs that will pop up even in a happy marriage. What are these saboteurs and what can you do before marriage to reduce the chances of them popping up?<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Les Parrott<\/strong>: Once again, at our SYMBIS assessment, we have a page dedicated to this. I got to tell you, this is the most neglected area of marital preparation today. The research shows it should be on the top three. It\u2019s really fundamental and it can be summed up in a single sentence and that is to adjust to things beyond your control. If you don\u2019t get a lock on this early on in your relationship, you&#8217;re setting yourself up for serious heartache.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>I can remember Leslie and I were speaking in San Juan Islands off of the coast of Seattle here. We had to get to another engagement and so we took this little four-seater Cessna. This pilot picked us up on this little island and took us back into Seattle. As we\u2019re landing, I asked the pilot. I said, \u201cHey, what\u2019s the secret to a good landing?\u201d He said the secret is to find the right attitude in spite of atmospheric conditions. I thought he meant to say altitude but he corrected me. He said, \u201cNo, attitude.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>That was the first I\u2019ve ever learned that pilots talk about an airplane having an attitude as it lands. It has to do with the tail and the nose in relationship to the ground. When I got off that airplane, I remember I turned to my wife, Leslie, and I just said, \u201cI got to write that down, finding the right attitude in spite of atmospheric conditions.\u201d I wish we could give it as a wedding gift to everybody that gets married in the world because it would solve so many problems.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>The saboteurs that we face \u2026 Every good marriage eventually bumps into something bad. It\u2019s just inevitable. Put your seatbelt on because it\u2019s coming. For us, we had a child that had incredible health challenges. For others, it might be something like bankruptcy or infertility or infidelity or just go down the list. Every good marriage eventually bumps into something bad. How you adjust to that, as well as all the little bumps in the road along the way, will determine whether or not your marriage sinks or swims.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>It all comes back around to adjusting to things beyond your control, finding the right attitude in spite of atmospheric conditions because saboteurs are things like blame and resentment and self-pity. I remember when we first got married, we\u2019re living in Los Angeles, going to graduate school and I think actually, one of the biggest self-pity parties Los Angeles has ever seen. Self-pity is very contagious. Things just weren\u2019t going my way. As you complain about that in your marriage, your spouse will begin to join the party and before you know it, you&#8217;re digging yourself into this big pit that serves no purpose whatsoever. The saboteurs of happiness in marriage, the list goes on and on but the remedy is the most important thing and that is finding the right attitude in spite of atmospheric condition.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: That\u2019s fantastic. I love that. We\u2019re the Art of Manliness podcast. Most of our listeners are men. There have been a lot written about men are from Mars, women are from Venus. They communicate differently. They have different needs. Is that really true? Do men and women communicate differently? If so, what can men do to better communicate with their wives or their future wife?<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Les Parrott<\/strong>: There\u2019s definitely a gender gap that we all need to be conscious of but when it comes to your question about do men and women communicate differently, in a sense but more important to me than a gender gap, which I want to come back to in a moment, more important is the personality that we bring into this relationship because that will determine more about how we communicate, how we like to be communicated to by our spouse than anything else. Once again, that\u2019s why we built this assessment, so, that you can really dig into your two personalities. What that does, it not only displays itself self-awareness, one of the hallmarks of well-being and health, but it also opens the door for empathy. You begin to bridge that gender gap more easily because you&#8217;re focused not just on, \u201cOh, men are this way and women are that way,\u201d which there\u2019s a lot of truth to that, but it\u2019s also because you&#8217;re going, \u201cI want to understand you as a person.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>When we do that, we crack the code of each other\u2019s talk styles because we\u2019re understanding our personalities. On the SYMBIS assessment, for example, we have this paragraph. There\u2019s a whole page on communication. We uncover your personal talk style, just how you are hardwired in your personality for communication. Everybody is different so you got to understand that about yourself and about each other. When it comes to those bridging the gender gap, two things I\u2019ll mention. There\u2019s lots in our book, Saving Your Marriage Before It Starts. We mentioned three things that every husband needs to know about his wife and vice versa.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>Let me list out one especially for men. That is that every man needs to understand that his wife needs to be cherished. That word cherished is a really feminine word because most men, in fact, some studies, you\u2019ll think I\u2019m making this up, but some studies have actually shown, you ask women to list the top 10 things they want in their spouse and inevitably, a woman will say, \u201cWell, I want him to cherish me.\u201d You ask men to list the top 100 things they want from their wife and you&#8217;ll be hard pressed to find a guy that says, \u201cWell, I know one thing. She\u2019d better cherish me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>Guys just don\u2019t think about that. It\u2019s not in our nature. That\u2019s one suggestion, to cherish your woman. Now, what does that mean? I always love it. Les and I do these events around North America called Fight Night. They\u2019re basically just a fun date night for couples. You can laugh while you learn. They\u2019ll sometimes ask the guy, \u201cHey, men. What does it mean to cherish a woman?\u201d You can hear crickets in the room because we just don\u2019t know. Cherish a woman, to love her? Let\u2019s get a little more refined than that.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>This silly example, silly to some men, very serious for a woman but let\u2019s say you show up at your wife\u2019s work when you know she\u2019s going to have a really challenging meeting or something like that and you deliver her favorite coffee drink from her favorite barista. You write a little note on the lid and you just leave it on her desk. You may not even see her. You do that. That\u2019s cherishing a woman. That\u2019s saying, \u201cI\u2019m thinking about you. I really care about how your day is going.\u201d That\u2019s what we mean by cherishing a woman. The book is filled with all kinds of tips like that on how you can do those things and both many others to bridge the gender gap but I\u2019m glad you asked the question because it\u2019s a big one.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: This idea of communication is something that\u2019s going to happen up in marriage every now, what\u2019s it\u2019s going to happen inevitably is arguments. You&#8217;re going to have disagreements. I think a lot of people have this idea that a happy marriage is a marriage where they never argue, you never raise your voice at each other but is fighting really bad for a marriage or can it actually be good for a marriage?<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Les Parrott<\/strong>: I appreciate that question too because as I just mentioned, we did this event called Fight Night and it\u2019s all about conflict. The reason we do that and the reason that\u2019s so popular, we\u2019ll have several thousand couples each time we\u2019d go to to view one of these things, the reason is all of us have conflict. Nobody\u2019s immune. The question is, how do you use it to your advantage? Here\u2019s what we tell people on those live events that we do. When you master the skill of a good fight, conflict becomes the price we pay for deeper intimacy. In other words, conflict can actually bring the two of you closer together if you know how to manage it successfully.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>To answer your question straight on, conflict is not bad for a marriage. What matters is how you manage that conflict. The goal is not to steer clear. It\u2019s just to know how to handle it. Of course, we have bad fights that draw us apart and we have dumb fights that are just a complete waste of time. I had a couple that told me just this last week that they were fighting because when they went to bed, the last person in bed didn\u2019t turn off the lights. The light switch is by the door. They both just have this pride fight about, \u201cYou get up. I did it last time. You get up.\u201d They just fell asleep with their lights on, woke up at 3:00 in the morning. The light was still as bright as day. That\u2019s just a dumb fight. That\u2019s pride.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>When you learn to manage those little tiffs, as well as the bigger things like, \u201cAre we going to move to St. Louis for your job when our family is here in Portland, Oregon,\u201d or whatever it might be, when you can learn to manage and navigate the tumultuous water, you learn to bring your spirits together and rise above. You&#8217;ll be in the top 10% of couples that enjoy success because so few couples know how to fight a good fight, as we like to say.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Those dumb fights, those happen. I\u2019ve had those with my wife. Whenever they happen, it\u2019s like, \u201cWhy are we fighting?\u201d One of us will those moments like, \u201cI can\u2019t even remember why we were fighting.\u201d We laugh it off. That\u2019s our way of diffusing the situation because usually, we forget what set it off and it\u2019s usually dumb.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Les Parrott<\/strong>: We had a couple a little while ago. They\u2019re fighting about whether their cat was Zach or not. That\u2019s a dumb fight.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: That\u2019s a dumb fight.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Les Parrott<\/strong>: It\u2019s just like, \u201cWhy are we having this fight?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: I think the key for us is just laughing about it, realizing, okay, we just \u2026 We\u2019re human and we just wasted five minutes of our lives. We\u2019ve been focusing on what to do to prepare for marriage but a lot of folks who are listening to this, they\u2019re in a marriage. It\u2019s not so great. It could be better. They\u2019re having problems. Do these tips apply to them? If they do these things, that they can help strengthen and possibly save their marriage?<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Les Parrott<\/strong>: Yeah, absolutely. In fact, this assessment that I\u2019ve been talking about, we designed it for pre-marriage and pre-engagement, those couples on the edge of commitment. What we discovered is it\u2019s applicable to any age or stage. It doesn\u2019t matter whether you&#8217;ve been married for 30 years or three years or you&#8217;ve just been dating for three years and you&#8217;re thinking about getting married. We all deal with these same issues and those issues are love and communication and conflict and bridging the gender gap and attitude and expectations and all that stuff that we\u2019ve been talking about. We actually now use this SYMBIS assessment with any age or stage.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Fantastic. Dr. Parrott, this has been a great conversation. Where can people learn more about your work? I think you mentioned, is it symbis.com they can go to?<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Les Parrott<\/strong>: Symbisassessment.com. That\u2019s why S-Y-M-B-I-S. That stands for Saving Your Marriage Before It Starts. That\u2019s the title of our book. By the way, theirs is, her workbooks that people can go through that together. There\u2019s even a DVD if they want. They can find all of that on our website, our primary website which is lesandleslie.com. That\u2019s L-E-S and then the word and, A-N-D, and then Leslie, L-E-S-L-I-E.com. Of course, there\u2019s a link there to the SYMBIS assessment that we\u2019ve been talking about too.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Fantastic. Dr. Les Parrott, thank you so much for your time. I\u2019s been a pleasure.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Les Parrott<\/strong>: Hey, my honor to be with you. Thanks for having me on.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: My guess today was Les Parrott. He is a clinical psychologist specializing in marriage and family. He\u2019s the co-author of the book, Saving Your Marriage before It Starts. You can find more information about his work at lesandleslie.com or like I said, in the podcast, you can take his Saving Your First Marriage Before It Starts assessment at symbisassessment.com. Be sure to check out the book on amazon.com, Saving Your First Marriage Before It Starts. Also check out the show notes at aom.is\/parrott.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>That wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. For more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com. If you enjoyed the show and have gotten something out of it, I\u2019d really appreciate if you give us review on iTunes or Stitcher. It really helps us out a lot. As always, thank you for your continued support and until next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>If you\u2019re a man on the precipice of marriage or have marriage as a life goal, one worry you likely have is \u201cWill my marriage last?\u201d While divorce rates have been decreasing since they reached their peak in the late 1970s and early &#8217;80s, there&#8217;s still a perception out there that marriage is just a [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":3,"featured_media":59571,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[42267,156,42285],"tags":[42244],"yst_prominent_words":[],"class_list":["post-59569","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-marriage","category-podcast","category-relationships","tag-dating"],"featured_image_urls":{"medium_large":"https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2016\/09\/Screen-Shot-2016-09-21-at-12.25.20-PM-768x352.png","large":"https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2016\/09\/Screen-Shot-2016-09-21-at-12.25.20-PM-538x280.png","reactor-320":"https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2016\/09\/Screen-Shot-2016-09-21-at-12.25.20-PM-320x147.png","reactor-640":"https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2016\/09\/Screen-Shot-2016-09-21-at-12.25.20-PM-640x293.png","rpwe-thumbnail":"https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2016\/09\/Screen-Shot-2016-09-21-at-12.25.20-PM-45x45.png","aesop-tiny-cover":"https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2016\/09\/Screen-Shot-2016-09-21-at-12.25.20-PM-400x183.png","aesop-character":"https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2016\/09\/Screen-Shot-2016-09-21-at-12.25.20-PM-200x200.png","aesop-collection":"https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2016\/09\/Screen-Shot-2016-09-21-at-12.25.20-PM-300x300.png","aesop-grid-image":"https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2016\/09\/Screen-Shot-2016-09-21-at-12.25.20-PM-400x183.png"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/beta.artofmanliness.com\/app-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/59569","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/beta.artofmanliness.com\/app-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/beta.artofmanliness.com\/app-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/beta.artofmanliness.com\/app-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/3"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/beta.artofmanliness.com\/app-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=59569"}],"version-history":[{"count":54,"href":"https:\/\/beta.artofmanliness.com\/app-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/59569\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":108463,"href":"https:\/\/beta.artofmanliness.com\/app-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/59569\/revisions\/108463"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/beta.artofmanliness.com\/app-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/59571"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/beta.artofmanliness.com\/app-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=59569"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/beta.artofmanliness.com\/app-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=59569"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/beta.artofmanliness.com\/app-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=59569"},{"taxonomy":"yst_prominent_words","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/beta.artofmanliness.com\/app-json\/wp\/v2\/yst_prominent_words?post=59569"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}