{"id":50696,"date":"2015-09-29T09:35:47","date_gmt":"2015-09-29T14:35:47","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.artofmanliness.com\/?p=50696"},"modified":"2026-03-13T09:03:18","modified_gmt":"2026-03-13T14:03:18","slug":"podcast-142-the-science-of-dating-and-mating","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/beta.artofmanliness.com\/social\/dating\/podcast-142-the-science-of-dating-and-mating\/","title":{"rendered":"Podcast #142: The Science of Dating and Mating"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https:\/\/player.simplecast.com\/f1cdab53-a7f4-40a3-b862-cbe8b17aa6b2?dark=true\" width=\"100%\" height=\"200px\" frameborder=\"no\" scrolling=\"no\" seamless=\"\"><span data-mce-type=\"bookmark\" style=\"display: inline-block; width: 0px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 0;\" class=\"mce_SELRES_start\">\ufeff<\/span><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p>In today&#8217;s episode I talk to evolutionary psychologist Geoffrey Miller, who co-authored the book <i><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/B00RTY0FKK\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=390957&amp;creativeASIN=B00RTY0FKK&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=stucosuccess&amp;linkId=FSXA3GZUT5SFDAZ4\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Mate: Become the Man Women Want<\/a>&nbsp;<\/i>with Tucker Max. You probably know Max from things like <em>I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell<\/em>, but these days, he&#8217;s married and has a kid, and was actually concerned that young men were using his &#8220;fratire&#8221; material as an honest-to-goodness guide to dating. He wanted to write a book that would offer sound, research-backed advice for interacting with women instead, and so teamed up with Miller to execute the idea.<\/p>\n<p>In this podcast,&nbsp;Geoffrey and I discuss some myths of dating, the traits women find attractive in men, and concrete steps men can take to increase their dating value, and have more success with women. Whether you&#8217;re married or single, this is&nbsp;a fascinating podcast you won&#8217;t want to miss.<\/p>\n<h3>Show Highlights<\/h3>\n<ul>\n<li>How an evolutionary psychologist ended up writing a book with Tucker Max<\/li>\n<li>Why we don&#8217;t really teach people about relationships even though it&#8217;s one of the most important things in life<\/li>\n<li>How to build dating confidence<\/li>\n<li>What you need to understand about how women view dating in order to be successful at&nbsp;it<\/li>\n<li>The traits women find attractive in&nbsp;men<\/li>\n<li>How to signal your value to women in an authentic and honest way<\/li>\n<li>Do women really just go for guys with a lot of money?<\/li>\n<li>Why you need to become a &#8220;tender defender&#8221; to attract a woman<\/li>\n<li>How &#8220;mating markets&#8221; affect your <a href=\"https:\/\/www.artofmanliness.com\/people\/relationships\/a-playbook-for-modern-dating-podcast\/\">dating<\/a> success or failure (and the best places for a man to live in order to succeed in the dating market)<\/li>\n<li>Do men&nbsp;still have to make the first move even in our gender equal society?<\/li>\n<li>How understanding the science of dating can help married men improve their marriage<\/li>\n<li>And much more!<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/B00RTY0FKK\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=390957&amp;creativeASIN=B00RTY0FKK&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=stucosuccess&amp;linkId=FSXA3GZUT5SFDAZ4\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter wp-image-50697 size-full\" src=\"https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2015\/09\/mate-book.jpg\" alt=\"Mate, book cover by tucker max geoffrey miller.\" width=\"322\" height=\"499\" srcset=\"https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2015\/09\/mate-book.jpg 322w, https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2015\/09\/mate-book-320x496.jpg 320w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 322px) 100vw, 322px\" \/><\/a><\/p>\n<p><em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/B00RTY0FKK\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=390957&amp;creativeASIN=B00RTY0FKK&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=stucosuccess&amp;linkId=FSXA3GZUT5SFDAZ4\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Mate<\/a>&nbsp;<\/em>is a humorous, irreverent, but highly insightful book packed with researched-backed tips on how to improve your dating life. I laughed out loud several times while reading it, while also finding a lot of it quite fascinating. But the interesting thing with <em>Mate&nbsp;<\/em>is that while the book is marketed as a how-to guide for dating, it&#8217;s really a book about how to become the best man you can be. Even if dating isn&#8217;t your top goal in life right now, you can still get a lot out of reading&nbsp;<em>Mate.&nbsp;<\/em>Pick up a copy today and be sure to visit Geoffrey&#8217;s and Tucker&#8217;s site&nbsp;The Mating Grounds for more free information.<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/clicktotweet.com\/ufg00\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Tell Geoffrey Miller &#8220;Thanks!&#8221; for being on the podcast!<\/a><\/p>\n<div>\n<h3>Listen to the Podcast! (And don\u2019t forget to leave us a review!)<\/h3>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/the-art-of-manliness\/id332516054?mt=2\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter wp-image-49206 size-full\" src=\"https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2015\/07\/available-on-itunes.png\" alt=\"Available on itunes.\" width=\"250\" height=\"92\" data-pin-nopin=\"true\"\/><\/a><\/p>\n<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter wp-image-49207 size-full\" src=\"https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2015\/07\/available-on-stitcher.png\" alt=\"Available on stitcher.\" width=\"250\" height=\"92\" data-pin-nopin=\"true\"\/><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/artofmanliness\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter wp-image-49208 size-full\" src=\"https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2015\/07\/soundcloud-logo.png\" alt=\"Soundcloud logo.\" width=\"250\" height=\"127\"\/><\/a><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/pcasts.in:443\/NwCI\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter wp-image-49655\" src=\"https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/\/2015\/08\/pocketcasts.png\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 225px) 100vw, 225px\" srcset=\"\" alt=\"Pocketcasts.\" width=\"225\" height=\"225\"\/><\/a><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/play.google.com\/music\/managemusic?t=The_Art_of_Manliness\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter wp-image-56926 size-full\" src=\"https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2016\/05\/google-play-podcast-e1464287132541.png\" alt=\"Google play podcast.\" width=\"250\" height=\"190\"\/><\/a><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<div>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/art19.com\/shows\/the-art-of-manliness\/episodes\/5331e34d-cb92-456b-8887-e4c02ab7aaee\">Listen to the episode on a separate page.<\/a><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/midrollmedia.mc.tritondigital.com\/OMNY_THEARTOFMANLINESS_P\/media\/d\/clips\/aaea4e69-af51-495e-afc9-a9760146922b\/6081eee7-c459-4e12-a1ab-aadc000fc4a7\/442afbaf-9560-405d-8b9e-aadc00217413\/audio\/direct.mp3?t=1583761109\">Download this episode.<\/a><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.omnycontent.com\/d\/playlist\/aaea4e69-af51-495e-afc9-a9760146922b\/6081eee7-c459-4e12-a1ab-aadc000fc4a7\/413a6904-4d72-4be8-9421-aadc000fc4ba\/podcast.rss\">Subscribe to the podcast in the media player of your choice.<\/a><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div>&nbsp;<\/div>\n<h3>Transcript<\/h3>\n<div>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness Podcast. A big part of our lives are relationships particularly relationships in the context of dating and mating can really have a big influence on what happiness and love mean but despite being such a big part of our lives, no one ever really sits you down and says, \u201cHere\u2019s what you need to do to have a successful dating life,\u201d or, \u201cHere\u2019s what you need to do to have a successful marriage once you found the one.\u201d We\u2019re expected to figure this stuff out on our own.<\/p>\n<p>My guest today on the podcast argues that\u2019s actually we\u2019re setting a lot of people up for unhappiness and failure by not giving them a bit of advice on how they can have a successful dating and relationship life. His name is Geoffrey Miller. He\u2019s an evolutionary psychologist. He\u2019s written several books on the topic of how evolutionary psychology influences our mating choices as well as consumer choices. He teamed up with Tucker Max. I just probably know Tucker from books like I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell and all that fratire stuff. They teamed up to write a book called Mate, all about the science of mating and dating. It\u2019s packed with research-backed tips on what guys can do to make themselves more attractive to women, the traits they can develop, authentic traits that will make them attractive and the traits that will help them have a happy, long lasting relationship, really interesting book. It\u2019s fun to read.<\/p>\n<p>Today on the podcast, Geoffrey Miller and I talk about some of the research, talk about what you do to become more confident. We talk about the traits that women look for in men. We talk about what you should look for in a woman depending on your relationship goals. We talk about how even the place you live can affect your dating chances and some things you can do to change that. If you\u2019re a single guy, a lot of great information for you. Even if you\u2019re married, Geoffrey and I talk about how this research about the psychology of relationships can help you improve your marriage as well. Without further ado, Geoffrey Miller and Mate. Geoffrey Miller, welcome to the show.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: It\u2019s great to be here. Thanks, Brett.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Your book is Mate. It\u2019s about the science of dating and mating and relating and all that jazz. You\u2019re a evolutionary psychologist that\u2019s written several books published in leading journals but you ended up partnering with Tucker Max on this book. I\u2019m sure a lot of our listeners know him for his I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell. How did that partnership happen?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: Granted it sounds like a bizarre match at first glance but actually, Tucker\u2019s a really bright guy, knows a lot of the science already. What happened was I read an interview with Tucker by a friend of mine that had happened back in 2011. Tucker clearly, he explicitly mentioned my first book, The Mating Mind, by name and said it had a big impact on him. He clearly knew a lot about evolutionary psychology, my field and about sexual selection and animal behavior. I e-mailed him 2012 and just expressed my interest and how was a leading popular author of fratire so knowledgeable about my field. We started corresponding. We got together for dinner actually within 2 weeks in Austin, Texas where Tucker lives, hit it off, had a lot of common interests and started lamenting the current state of dating advice to young men. That really dominated this first dinner conversation and was the seed that launched the whole Mate book.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: You guys started off with a website before the book which is jam-packed with great information there.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: Yeah. We\u2019ve been running this website called Mating Grounds for about the last 15 months. We have our own podcast series which includes mostly answering questions from guys and giving the best evidence-based advice that we can but also we\u2019ve got interviews with experts. We\u2019ve also got a case study of a young guy that Tucker knows, Joe, where we\u2019ve been coaching him for 30 episodes through getting his life together and improving all his traits and proofs that are attractive to women and improving his whole dating life. There\u2019s a lot of content there.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: You mentioned that there\u2019s really not that much information out there about dating or if there is information out there, it\u2019s not that great which is surprising because dating, relationships, mating, that\u2019s a big part of life. Like what Freud said, it\u2019s all the reason life is work and love.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: Exactly.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: It\u2019s like personal finance, right? No one ever really sits you down and talk about money even though money is the thing that we all spend most of our time doing. Why is that? Why don\u2019t we spend more time on something that\u2019s so important or teaching skills or insights that\u2019s something that\u2019s so important in our life?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: That\u2019s a really good question. Tucker and I actually wrote thousands of words about this that didn\u2019t make it into the book just for reasons of space. There\u2019s a whole back story about why has modern culture failed young men extremely and profoundly. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that anything to do with sex and dating and mating and marriage is very politically controversial. People have really different ideologies about it. A public high school can\u2019t really teach a course on how to do dating and mating effectively because it would be seen as biased or partisan or inappropriate.<\/p>\n<p>Also, parents feel like they just don\u2019t understand the current mating situation. The technology of mating is moving so fast like texting and online dating and the way that dates happen. Grandparents and parents don\u2019t feel like their expertise is that relevant to young people even though a lot of it actually is because human nature doesn\u2019t change that much. Then, there\u2019s people seeking to make a bunch of money off of insecure young men, basically scammers and slightly sociopathic pickup artists trying to sell their weekend programs. Not all of them are bad. Some of them have good insights but the economic model that they have is very different from what we\u2019re doing in Mate. We\u2019re just like, \u201cWe\u2019re going to stick it all in one book. It\u2019s fairly cheap. Boom. That\u2019s what we know.\u201d Other folks are more like, \u201cHow can we make thousands of dollars out of young men\u2019s insecurity before we give away useful information.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Was there a time in our culture when we passed on this information about successful courtship and successful mating?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: I think there have been cultures that had more effective initiation rites where once you hit puberty, if you\u2019re a young boy or girl, the elders will take you off into the bush and teach you stuff. Normally, that stuff was considered sacred and secret. A lot of it had to do with hunting and gathering, not necessarily with mating but a lot of it was sexual wisdom. We don\u2019t really know honestly what was taught in those context but at least, the elders of the tribe made an effort. They did have these ritualized settings and events that tried to teach young men what they needed to know.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Got you. Let\u2019s get into some of the meat of your book about research-backed tips at what men can do to improve their dating life, their love life. You started off talking about confidence. I thought it was really interesting because a lot of success in dating is based on confidence because you say a lot of success in life is based on confidence. How do you build confidence for dating? Is it something that if you get confident in one area of your life, it carries over to dating or is confidence domain specific?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: We put a chapter on confidence right at the beginning of the book because it was the number 1 question that guys called in with to the podcast. They wanted to know, number 1, how do I get more confident, number 2, conversation, how do I talk to women. I think you can build your confidence. A lot of it is based on demonstrated performance. There\u2019s a few tricks. There\u2019s a few life hacks you can use to boost your confidence temporarily in a particular domain but in the mate book, we\u2019re really about what are the sustainable long term ways that you can increase your confidence particularly around women.<\/p>\n<p>Basically, that means you have to go out and have experience and interactions and build up the traits that you know will be attractive to women. It\u2019s very hard to feel confident if you don\u2019t understand what women really want and if you know you haven\u2019t cultivated the traits that they really want because then, you get this impostor syndrome where you feel like, \u201cOkay, maybe I can talk a good line. Maybe I\u2019ve got a good approach,\u201d but it feels like a house of cards. I think you have to do some deep inner work and get the rest of your life together before you can really approach a woman with confidence. Most of the Mate book is really about doing all that work ahead of time even before a date. It\u2019s not that hard but it\u2019s something a lot of guys neglect to do.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: You talked about what women find attractive, what your second chapter is about. You need to understand what it\u2019s like to be a woman to have a successful love life. What is that men need to understand about women that they might not understand about women?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: Another really common theme in the questions we got for the Mating Grounds Podcast was guys would call in with a question that could be easily answered if they just take in a few minutes to put themselves in women\u2019s shoes and ask, \u201cWhat is it like to be a woman? Why is she reacting this way?\u201d We go step by step through the things about female life and experience that a lot of young guys don\u2019t understand.<\/p>\n<p>For example, what are women\u2019s fears, concerns and anxieties? Women have a lot more fear about their physical safety, their sexual safety like fear of sexual harassment and rape. Most guys don\u2019t get that. Women fear about their sexual reputation. They\u2019re very worried about slut-shaming even today. They don\u2019t want to put themselves in situations where their sexual reputation is vulnerable to being mocked or belittled or criticized by their female friends. Women are very safety conscious. A guy\u2019s number 1 task in approaching a woman or presenting himself on a first date is not necessarily to impress the woman but simply to make her feel relaxed and safe in your presence.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: That sort of goes counter to what a lot of the dating advice you\u2019d see online where you need to show dominance right away. You make them feel safe.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: Exactly. If you read all the stuff about you got to be an alpha male and show dominance, dominance is great for intimidating other men so you scare them away but when you show dominance upfront to a woman and you don\u2019t really know how to use it in an attractive way, it codes as danger in a woman\u2019s brain. It activates their amygdala. It provokes anxiety. The woman thinks, \u201cWhy is this guy acting belligerent and assertive and even hostile to me? I don\u2019t feel physically safe. I don\u2019t feel sexually safe.\u201d There can be a little bit of an erotic thrill to that with just the basis of those romance novels but if you don\u2019t know what you\u2019re doing with dominance, it can drive a lot of women away.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Let\u2019s talk about what the research says about what women find attractive in men, what traits they should be working on to develop. What are the traits that women find attractive in men from an evolutionary perspective?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: There\u2019s a lot of traits but we boil them down to just 5 partly for the sake of simplicity and partly because these are the 5 that we know how to improve based on the current evidence, physical health, mental health, intelligence, will power and what we call the tender defender trait. Then, there\u2019s another 4 things that are what are your proofs that you have those 5 traits. We think there\u2019s really good evidence that those 5 basic traits are attractive.<\/p>\n<p>Physical health plays out in terms of how your body looks, how you move, how healthy you seem, how much energy you have. The big leverage points for improving physical health are basically get enough sleep which most young guys don\u2019t do and it really handicaps them. Eat right. By right, we don\u2019t mean pay attention to the FDA nutrition guidelines. We basically mean eat Paleo and I can go into that if you want, and exercise and know how to do exercise that\u2019s really efficient and effective. You don\u2019t need to do cardio for an hour 3 times a week. There\u2019s much more efficient ways to do exercise. Then, for the other 4 traits, we go through analogous interventions that you can do in life that are maximally efficient and effective and don\u2019t take that much time but they really bring results.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Going back to physical health, do you have to be super fit like Brad Pitt, Fight Club six-pack abs? What\u2019s the minimum required fitness? I think there\u2019s a perception out there that you have to be shredded in order to attract a woman.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: Shredded is actually bad. If you\u2019re below 10% body fat, that\u2019s actually not as healthy as having a little more fat in terms of how your immune system works fighting off colds and infections and diseases and all of that. It\u2019s fine to have a little bit of fat. You don\u2019t need to be super bulked up and have massive muscles. Women like muscles and they appreciate them but if you look at hunter-gatherer guys, the guys who are good at going out and hunting and killing game and dragging it back to camp, they do not look like body builders.<\/p>\n<p>They look more like MMA fighters or Olympic decathlon guys or just guys who are generally in good shape from doing a combination of some aerobic work and also some body weight exercises or kettlebells or stuff like that. You don\u2019t have to be in perfect shape. Women just don\u2019t want to be sexually repulsed by your body basically. There\u2019s a lot of young guys who are sexually repulsive in terms of what they look like. They\u2019re not taking care of themselves and it\u2019s sad.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: That was interesting that you mentioned will power. We\u2019ve written about that on the site but I didn\u2019t think that it\u2019s something as a trait, a sexual trait that women would find attractive. What is it about will power that makes a man attractive to a woman?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: Will power is closely related to a personality trait called conscientiousness which has been really well studied. That\u2019s basically your ability to take charge of your life, have some priorities, exercise, self-restraint, avoid temptations, pursue long term goals and develop a set of habits and a regime of self-improvement. They require some effort but that demonstrates to women that you have ambition and that you care about making yourself the best guy that you can. Women read even basic cues like do you have a decent haircut, do you shave or if you have a beard, do you take care of it, do you dress well. These are signals of will power at a certain level. You don\u2019t think will power requires that I work 60 hours a week. No, it can just be ordinary life habits that demonstrate you\u2019re making an effort.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Someone probably wouldn\u2019t want to be married to a guy who works 60 hours a week, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: Yeah. You can go too far in the conscientiousness direction which shapes over into obsessive compulsive disorder or workaholism or other kinds of behavioral addictions that are real turnoffs to women.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: I love this thing also. You have this tender defender because it\u2019s an alternative to the alpha male dominance theory that\u2019s put out there on the websites. Can you explain what the tender defender trait is?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: Yeah. Tender defender is the way that we talk about striking the right balance between agreeableness and warmth and love and tenderness towards a woman and towards her friends and potential future kids you can have with them where you\u2019re really taking care of them. You show you have those good boyfriend and good dad traits. The defender is if there\u2019s an external threat, a challenge, a predator, a natural disaster, a criminal or more abstract threat, a social or financial threat, that you can rise to the occasion and deal with it, take care of it and protect the woman and her kids. Women instinctively tune in to who\u2019s going to be a good tender defender and have the right mix of traits. Women are turned off by psychopaths on one hand because they\u2019re not tender enough but they\u2019re turned off by the wimpy Mr. Nice guys because they\u2019re not good at being good defenders.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Got you. I think I\u2019ve read a research where women are attracted to dominance but only whenever that dominance is displayed to I guess \u201cenemies,\u201d people that aren\u2019t part of the tribe, so to speak.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: Yeah. A girlfriend doesn\u2019t want you to show dominance to her mom or her nieces or nephews or her female friends. Dominance is there for male versus male competition. If there\u2019s a threat from another male who\u2019s sexually harassing your girlfriend, she wants you to stand up and be dominant and get that guy out of her life. Dominance can also be very useful in bed during sex. A lot of women want guys to take charge in bed but the rest of the time, if there\u2019s not an immediate threat and if you\u2019re not actually doing foreplay or sex, then dominance is just a pain in the ass and it\u2019s not even relevant to a woman\u2019s interests.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Got you. You mentioned signaling. What is signaling theory in a nutshell?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: Signaling theory is the idea that animals including humans are motivated to display attractive traits to other animals including mates but also to rivals to intimidate them or towards predators to say, \u201cYou can\u2019t catch me. Don\u2019t even bother trying.\u201d The key thing in the biology it signals is the signal has to be credible and reliable and hard to fake in order for the other animal or the other human to pay any attention to it.<\/p>\n<p>If you go around sending signals that are easy to fake no matter how good you are at doing something, then the other animal has no incentive to pay any attention to that. It\u2019s called cheap talk. It\u2019s not a reliable signal. In the mating domain with humans, what you want is to display all these attractive traits in a way that a less attractive guy couldn\u2019t do. That\u2019s a reliable signal. That leads us from the traits that are attractive into these, what we call proofs, social proof, material proof, aesthetic proof. These are ways of signaling that I\u2019ve got these attractive traits in a reliable and unfakeable manner.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Got you. Let\u2019s just talk about material proof because on the web, you often read about hypergamy, that women are only attracted to guys who have lots of money. Is that true?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: It\u2019s true for some women, no doubt. Some women are gold diggers and they\u2019re financially ambitious. That\u2019s fine. That\u2019s a valid life decision as long as they\u2019re upfront about it. The thing to remember about what we call material proof is that money didn\u2019t really exist until the last few thousand years. During the whole course of prehistory when women were evolving their mate preferences and what they find attractive in men, there wasn\u2019t money. There weren\u2019t bank accounts. There weren\u2019t regular paychecks. The women would pay attention to things like who\u2019s a good hunter, who\u2019s got high status and prestige in my clan or my tribe but you couldn\u2019t stockpile resources. Even the best hunters would sometimes come home empty-handed and have to beg vegetables from their girlfriends.<\/p>\n<p>The idea that women evolved this fetish for wealth just can\u2019t be accurate in terms of the anthropology. Instead, we think wealth is really attractive to women mostly because it indicates deeper underlying traits that tend to lead to wealth in modern societies, things like intelligence and will power, social skills, passion, dedication, ambition, all that stuff. I think when women see a financially attractive guy, most of them find that interesting because they know he had to do a whole bunch of stuff to succeed in his career whatever it was. It\u2019s the ability to do all that stuff rather than the money itself that\u2019s primally attractive.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: If you\u2019re in a position like you\u2019re a broke college student, it\u2019s not that you don\u2019t have money that women are \u2026 You should develop the traits that women will find attractive and say, \u201cHe has the, I don&#8217;t know, the capability of acquiring resources in a future date.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: Yeah. For 25 years in evolutionary psychology, we know that young men actually value your future earning potential more than your current wealth level. Women are very good at projecting into the future what is this guy\u2019s likely path. Is he doing well in organic chemistry and he\u2019s pre-med and he\u2019s going to become a doctor at a high likelihood or is he a sophomore who\u2019s got no idea what he\u2019s going to do, no major, no ambition, bad grades. Even if he\u2019s cute and charming, they\u2019ll project forward financially and go, \u201cHe doesn\u2019t have all the traits that are going to be required to succeed in modern America.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Having money was something required to get married. I got married with I was 22. I had piles of debt but my wife still found me attractive for some reason. I\u2019m guessing she saw my pluck that I might have had.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: The sad thing is most guys spend so much more time and energy chasing the money rather than educating themselves about how to become a more attractive guy. That is such a roundabout and indirect way to achieve your mating goals.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Got you. Let\u2019s talk about other social proof. One of those is sociability, that you have lots of friends. Why is displaying or signaling that you have friends or a large social network attractive to women?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: Showing that you\u2019ve got a lot of friends is a great form of social proof because it shows you\u2019ve got the social intelligence and the emotional intelligence to sustain long term relationships. A lot of the same traits and skills that it takes for a guy to keep his male friends around are going to be relevant to entertaining and pleasing a girlfriend. It doesn\u2019t really matter which sex your relationships are. Those skills transfer. Also, bear in mind that back in prehistory, women often transferred from their home tribe where they grew up to another tribe where some attractive guy was who they wanted to have a relationship with.<\/p>\n<p>Now, if there\u2019s a lone guy just out in the forest with no friend, no clan, no woman\u2019s going to leave a safe home tribe to go out with that solo guy. They\u2019re going to be tiger meat pretty soon. That\u2019s not a sustainable situation. A guy\u2019s got to be surrounded by friends and relatives for a woman to feel safe at a fundamental level. If you don\u2019t have that social proof, it\u2019s really important to get it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Get out there. Try to make friends. Join clubs, things like that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: Yeah. Meet-up groups happen in every city in America. A lot of guys lose touch with friends from high school and college. They don\u2019t need to. There\u2019s a video Skype. Guys don\u2019t invest the effort in their friendships. They get really lazy about it. That\u2019s stupid because friends can provide an enormous amount of vicarious attractiveness. They can vouch for you. They can reveal to a woman things about you that you wouldn\u2019t feel comfortable bragging about yourself. They can try to do a lot of the courtship on your behalf.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: What I thought was interesting throughout this book was yes, it\u2019s about when you do these things, you\u2019re going to attract women but in the process, you\u2019re becoming a better person. Even if you don\u2019t get a date right away, your happiness will probably increase significantly if you just do some of these things that you guys lay out in your book.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: That\u2019s right. At one level, the book is framed and sold as dating advice but Tucker and I also had a cohort mission, almost a Trojan horse that we just wanted young guys to get their lives in general together better. We knew that sex was a huge motivator. If you just start lecturing guys about you need to get in shape, they\u2019ll go, \u201cYeah, yeah. Someday.\u201d If you go, \u201cWomen will have sex with you if you get in shape,\u201d then guys will go, \u201cYeah, okay. I\u2019ll get in shape.\u201d Then, they get all the benefits of that in the rest of their social life, their careers. We also know being in shape improves your mental health and your mood and your happiness level. There\u2019s a hidden agenda that we want guys to create excellence in their lives more generally. Because they\u2019re so focused on mating, that\u2019s a kind of a path forward that can tap into that motivation pretty easily.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: It\u2019s pretty sneaky of you guys there. One thing you mentioned in your book too was this idea of assortative mating. How does understanding assortative mating help men in the dating world?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: Assortative mating is just a concept that like attracts like, that men with a certain set of traits tend to attract women who have similar traits. The idea that opposites attract is complete nonsense. We\u2019ve had 50 years of research in psychology showing that hardly ever works. Men tend to attract women but beyond that, people tend to pair up based on their overall mate value, overall how attractive are they. This isn\u2019t just like the 0 to 10 scale of physical attractiveness. This is, are they physically attractive, socially attractive, intelligent, socially successful? Add up all of that. That\u2019s your mate value. People tend to assortatively mate for overall mate value.<\/p>\n<p>Also, at a more micro level, people tend to match on specific traits. Married couples correlate pretty highly for IQ, general intelligence. They correlate very strongly for political and religious values. They correlate pretty strongly for personality traits. A lot of online dating sites like OkCupid with their match percentage recognize this. Your match percentage is basically saying if you want to be happy, do assortative mating. We\u2019ve asked these thousands of questions you can answer on OkCupid specifically so you can do assortative mating. That tends to lead to happier dates.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: That was really interesting because there\u2019s a trope online where women are only attracted to rich guys. You can be old and if you have lots of money, then you can attract a young attractive woman. It doesn\u2019t matter your looks. Then, guys just go for looks in women but whenever I\u2019m out and about like I\u2019m at Target or I\u2019m at Panera Bread and I look around at the couples, these people look pretty much the same. Kind of overweight people are with the overweight people, attractive people with attractive people, medium looking people are with medium looking people. It seems like everyone knows where they stand like you said in the mate market.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: Yeah, absolutely. Then, if you get to talking to those couples and one is conspicuously a lot smarter than the other, there\u2019s a jarring sensation like, \u201cWait. How are they together?\u201d You worry this isn\u2019t going to last because the intelligent one\u2019s going to get bored and frustrated and leave. If people are really mismatched on things like fundamental religious or political values and they\u2019re always arguing about Bernie and Trump and Obama or whatever or which religion should we raise our kids in, that\u2019s not going to last very long.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: We\u2019ve talked about what women find attractive in men but in order to have a successful dating life, you need to think about the type of woman you want to date and relate with in order to have a successful dating life. What should men look for in a woman depending on their dating goals?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: All guys are instinctively pretty good at paying attention to a woman\u2019s physical attractiveness. That tends to drive a lot of decisions about who do you swipe right on Tinder for and who do you message on match.com or whatever. We don\u2019t really need to worry about guys paying attention to that. It\u2019s mostly about what are a woman\u2019s mental and moral and personality traits that are worth paying attention to. If it\u2019s a short term hookup, one night stand, casual sex, the main mental and moral traits to worry about are the red flags that create a lot of trouble.<\/p>\n<p>If a woman shows conspicuous signs of personality disorders like borderline personality disorder, narcissism or psychopathy, those can be bad because you can end up in a situation of lies and deception and danger and stalking and recriminations and disasters. It\u2019s important to learn about those traits, we talk about some of them in Mate, even if you plan to only spend 3 hours with a woman. She might not be planning to spend only 3 hours with you. If there\u2019s any longer term relationship potential like girlfriend or even wife, then all of the same traits that women pay attention to in you should become relevant for you selecting women for a lot of the same reasons.<\/p>\n<p>Intelligence plays out in all kinds of ways that are hard to anticipate when you\u2019re young in terms of career success and money management and managing and social relationships, resolving conflict, all of that stuff. Getting the brightest woman you can attract is important. Getting the most emotionally stable woman you can attract, the most agreeable and kind woman. A lot of guys learn this stuff through bitter experience with girlfriends who don\u2019t have these desirable traits. In the Mate book, we try to give guys a preview of here\u2019s how things will play out if you don\u2019t pay attention to these traits other than just physical beauty.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: I thought it was interesting too how, I guess Buss has done this cross cultural studies about what men and women find attractive. People just tend to focus on the differences. Men put a premium on physical attractiveness and women put a premium on resources and wealth and things like that but what often these websites that report on this often fail to report is that above those traits, things like kindness, respect, that\u2019s what both men and women put a premium on in a partner.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: Exactly, yeah. That was one of the most striking things from that Buss\u2019s study back in 1989. It\u2019s been replicated in even more culture since then, more than 50 cultures. Typically, the top 2 most desired traits are intelligence and kindness and then you often get things like exciting personality or a sense of humor or creativity or resourcefulness, adaptability, all that stuff, inner crisis, would this person be a useful ally or a handicap. No matter whether it\u2019s contemporary America or rural Uganda, those same traits can be super useful for both sexes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: You talked about something that I\u2019ve just learned about recently and you\u2019re hearing more about it. I think there\u2019s a book that just came out about this. It said dating markets. Can you explain dating markets and the general gist of it and how they work and how they\u2019ll affect your dating life?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: Yeah. Mating markets is a concept I got really excited about. I spent 4 years in an economics department in London that did a lot of game theory. Game theory is about strategic interactions between players in a particular market. It analyzes things like what\u2019s your bargaining power in terms of how many people desire things from you versus you desiring things from them. In mating markets, that plays out very heavily in terms of what\u2019s the sex ratio, the proportion of women to men but it also plays out in terms of things like what\u2019s the distribution of ages in the mating market or the distribution of physical attractiveness or intelligence or what are the social norms and expectations about dating.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019re trying to date in Salt Lake City, Utah where there\u2019s a bunch of Mormons seeking husbands and wives, that\u2019s really different from San Francisco where there\u2019s a lot of polyamory and open relationships. Most guys don\u2019t really think about what mating market they\u2019re in and whether they should move to a better one which is crazy because young guys are willing to move to college hundreds of thousands of miles away. They\u2019re willing to move for a job but they\u2019re not willing to move to a different mating market that might make it 10 times easier to find a woman that they want.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Where are some places where it\u2019s tough for a guy? I\u2019m guessing it\u2019s places like New York City where there are a lot more, I don&#8217;t know, how would you say this, like driven women who have high paying jobs. Would that be a tough dating market?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: New York is actually awesome for men. I spent 8 months there in 2013 and it\u2019s terrific because the ratio of college educated women in Manhattan to college educated men, it\u2019s about 1 in a half or in some places, even 2 to 1. The women are desperate and there\u2019s a real shortage of good guys. By good guys, they don\u2019t mean Wall Street bankers. They just mean guys who can dress and talk and at least buy them a coffee. The sex ratio in New York is hugely advantageous to guys. The really bad mating market is actually San Jose, California near Silicon Valley where there\u2019s a lot more guys than women. The women who are there are in huge demand and they have their pick of entrepreneurs and tech millionaires. A lot of the guys end up just becoming workaholics because that\u2019s all there is to do. They can\u2019t find a woman.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: When there\u2019s more men, women can get pickier. When there\u2019s more women, men can get pickier.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: Yeah. This also applies to colleges. I mean any college you\u2019re thinking about applying to if you\u2019re a high school guy, go to Wikipedia. Wikipedia lists sex ratio for almost every university in America and have a look. If that sex ratio is less than 60% women, you\u2019re going to have trouble. If you want a higher sex ratio, Sarah Lawrence College is 70% women, 30% men. The guys should have a good sense to realize that, \u201cOh, Sarah Lawrence College accepts men now. It has done for 20 years.\u201d Women fall all over them. It\u2019s really easy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Here\u2019s the question I have. I can see that being great. You go to a place where it\u2019s great with women, you don\u2019t really \u2026 They\u2019ll be falling all over themselves for you but I feel like from a man\u2019s perspective, say, you want to settle down. Having that many choices could \u2026 I could see it causing you to try to maximize to the utmost to the point where you don\u2019t even make a choice because you\u2019re always putting off. \u201cMaybe, there\u2019s someone better out there.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: Yeah. This is something that does happen to highly attractive guys on Tinder in Manhattan is there\u2019s this wealth for choice that they treat women really badly and they know I can always find somebody for hookup tomorrow and so they never develop a long term relationship. That can bring in some emotional and social problems but for most guys and most mating markets, if you\u2019re overwhelmed and spoiled with the amount of casual sex you\u2019re having, you will eventually get tired of that and you probably will want a longer term girlfriend.<\/p>\n<p>This is something we realized in the Mating Grounds Podcast. Most young men don\u2019t just want a bunch of casual sex. They want a girlfriend. Even if you\u2019re in a mating market where you could have a lot of casual sex, you can always opt to make it last longer and settle down with a good woman. As you point out, the key thing is don\u2019t keep second guessing yourself and going, \u201cOh, I could find another woman who\u2019s 3% prettier and 2% higher IQ.\u201d Your life satisfaction in the relationship is mostly going to be, at that point, how you manage the relationship and not are you actually maximizing every single trait that the woman has.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: We talked about selecting someone. Let\u2019s get to the dating part. Is it still really up to the guy? What does the research say? Is it still up to the guy to make the first move when it comes to dating?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: Yeah, it really is. It\u2019s up to the guy to make the first move and ask the woman out. It\u2019s also up to the guy to pay for it. The research on both of those is very clear. Now, women will give signals of interest, most of which are too subtle and young guys don\u2019t pick up on and ignore. The woman can often feel like she\u2019s the one making the first move but really, it\u2019s up to the guy either when he\u2019s approaching a woman in real life or when they\u2019re messaging through an online dating app. It\u2019s up to the guy to step up and go, \u201cOkay, I\u2019d like to meet you. Here\u2019s my suggestion about where and when. Is that okay with you?\u201d The woman will either go, \u201cYep, great. Looking forward to it,\u201d or she\u2019ll suggest an alternative or she\u2019ll say, \u201cNope, don\u2019t want to meet.\u201d Then, you know where you stand.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: I\u2019m sure you guys get this question a lot too on the podcast but how should guys handle rejection? I know for a lot of guys, being rejected by women is really, really hard. It causes a lot of anguish and anger. What can they do to just, I don&#8217;t know, handle that better?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: There\u2019s 2 things to do to step back from the focus on am I getting the date, am I getting sex. Step back from that and go, \u201cAm I learning how to interact with women?\u201d If you have that learning mindset that, hey, we\u2019ve talked or we\u2019ve messaged and I\u2019ve been practicing my conversational skills or my verbal fluency, I\u2019ve been practicing my storytelling and my sense of humor, then even if a woman says, \u201cNo, I don\u2019t want to meet. I don\u2019t want to date,\u201d it\u2019s still a win because you\u2019re still getting experience in courtship. If you go in with the mindset that I want to improve my skills rather than I absolutely must have sex with this woman, then you don\u2019t have to take the rejection that hard.<\/p>\n<p>Secondly, in terms of rejection, framing it as a matter of feat rather than quality. Most women reject guys not because the guy is fundamentally inadequate and could never attract any woman. It\u2019s just that particular woman, given her mate choice criteria, her preferences, what she\u2019s looking for, what her mating goals are, they don\u2019t align with yours. That\u2019s okay. You don\u2019t have to take it as a rejection of your whole being. It\u2019s just we don\u2019t happen to fit. It\u2019s like going for a job interview and the company or you realizing we\u2019re not a good fit in terms of employer-employee.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: I like that. I like that analogy. I\u2019m curious, Geoffrey because I\u2019m married. I\u2019ve been married for 10 years. I know a lot of guys who are listening are married too. Can some of these principles help married men in their long term relationship with their wife?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: Absolutely. I think a huge mistake that a lot of husbands make is thinking that courtship and attracting my wife is something I did before marriage. Now, we\u2019re in some safe zone where I don\u2019t have to make any mating effort anymore. That\u2019s not how wives think about it. Wives expect continued mating effort and continued courtship and conversation and affection and attention throughout a marriage. Also, the same traits that attract women to men initially keep women interested in men sexually and emotionally within a marriage.<\/p>\n<p>I think even married guys will get a lot out of the Mate book in terms of realizing, \u201cOh, man. I\u2019ve been neglecting 3 out of 5 fundamental traits that my wife wanted me to keep cultivating,\u201d or, \u201cI\u2019ve been neglecting my male friends,\u201d or, \u201cI\u2019ve been neglecting my aesthetic proof which is how I dress and how we keep our home together,\u201d or, \u201cI\u2019ve been neglecting my romantic proof which is how much attention I pay to my wife in terms of investing specifically in her and our relationship.\u201d All the same lessons still apply in marriage because there\u2019s really no finish line in terms of human sexuality.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Awesome. Geoffrey, this has been a fascinating conversation. Where can people learn more about your work?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: Probably the best place to go is just matinggrounds.com, the Mating Grounds website. It\u2019s got a whole lot of materials, all of my academic papers, all 1,700 references and suggested readings for the Mate book, all 200 plus podcasts episodes and we\u2019re going to keep adding material to Mating Grounds in the future as well.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: Awesome. Geoffrey Miller, thank you so much for your time. It\u2019s been a pleasure.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Geoffrey Miller<\/strong>: Yeah, likewise. Take care, Brett.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brett McKay<\/strong>: My guest today was Geoffrey Miller. He\u2019s the co-author of the book, Mate. You can find it on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. Also check out Geoffrey and Tucker\u2019s website, Mating Grounds. That\u2019s thematinggrounds.com. You got to put the T-H in front of it, full of just awesome, free information about the research that went into this book. You got to check it out. Also, they have a podcast you can check out as well. That wraps up another edition of the Art of Manliness Podcast. For more manly tips and advice, make sure you check out the Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com. Until next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>\ufeff In today&#8217;s episode I talk to evolutionary psychologist Geoffrey Miller, who co-authored the book Mate: Become the Man Women Want&nbsp;with Tucker Max. You probably know Max from things like I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell, but these days, he&#8217;s married and has a kid, and was actually concerned that young men were using [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":3,"featured_media":50700,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[218,42377,156,42285],"tags":[42244],"yst_prominent_words":[],"class_list":["post-50696","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-culture","category-dating","category-podcast","category-social","tag-dating"],"featured_image_urls":{"rpwe-thumbnail":"https:\/\/content.artofmanliness.com\/uploads\/2015\/09\/mate-book1-45x45.jpg"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/beta.artofmanliness.com\/app-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/50696","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/beta.artofmanliness.com\/app-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/beta.artofmanliness.com\/app-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/beta.artofmanliness.com\/app-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/3"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/beta.artofmanliness.com\/app-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=50696"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/beta.artofmanliness.com\/app-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/50696\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/beta.artofmanliness.com\/app-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/50700"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/beta.artofmanliness.com\/app-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=50696"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/beta.artofmanliness.com\/app-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=50696"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/beta.artofmanliness.com\/app-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=50696"},{"taxonomy":"yst_prominent_words","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/beta.artofmanliness.com\/app-json\/wp\/v2\/yst_prominent_words?post=50696"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}